Are EV and ToU tariffs unfair to other electricity customers?

JKenH

MattMattMattUK said:

JKenH said:

Scot_39 said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

I have started this thread to respond to a comment on a different thread ( Martin Lewis: Standing charges update risks households paying more) without taking that thread off topic

QrizB said:

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This isn't entirely true if you look beyond standing charges (the subject of this thread) and include unit costs (which the thread has begun to include).

Someone on a flat rate tariff will be paying a weighed average price covering the entire period of the tariff (3 months for the SVT, 12 or more for a fix). Swapping to a ToU tariff will allow the householder to choose to use more electricity during cheaper periods and less during more expensive ones. This can save the householder money without creating a loss for the supplier that needs recovering from elsewhere. A "winner" without a corresponding "loser".

That is an interesting (and valid) point. 

Ultimately if every individual optimised their consumption to achieve the lowest import price on a ToU tariff then prices would adjust to meet demand until they levelled out. So at the moment those able to take advantage of ToU prices can do so because others can’t. 

That is the short answer and applies to tariffs such as EV tariffs which are underpinned by the variable utility of electricity - we value it more at tea time than in the middle of the night. 

The situation is more complicated with tariffs like Octopus Agile and Tracker and Intelligent Octopus which have arisen to reflect price variability driven by the intermittency of renewable generation and I concede there can be winners here without corresponding losers. In fact it can be win-win on occasions if curtailment is avoided as SVT customers also benefit. 

Seems a very odd question. Either we use prices to match supply and demand or we choose state control and rationing.

I don't see what state control has to do with rationing power.

Not at the moment anyway in UK.

In fact if anything its the exact opposite.

What we have is definitely not rationing - we have massive overcapacity thanks to net zero and renewables without storage model we use - so actual capacity duplication.

Solar (approaching 20GW) and wind (over 30GW) at certain times, and when they cannot, gas/biomass etc at others.

And the imbalance at times leading to folk like Octopus "dumping power" on people - certainly on agile in past for hours at a time - actually paying them to use energy - whether using for useful things (like moving a washing into cheap times) or say turning on a bar fire on in the middle of the garden in summer to get paid to burn kWh of power.  (Their was even a thread here discussing the morality of potentially "wasting power" in such ways - whether it was even wasteful at all)

So we have state - net zero policy - in control - actually interfering - de-stabilising the traditional supply and demand model - not by constraining peak supply to potentially require rationing - but by boosting it under the right weather conditions.

In fact the only rationing going on is amongst our poor and vulnerable - who cannot afford - not the luxury of what they might like to - but the basic standards of life - of using what they need - for a comfortable healthy existence.

As thanks to policy - including our rushed net zero policy - UK has amongst the highest energy costs in comparable countries.

While I generally agree with your comments you do appear to be confusing generation capacity with generation. At times our renewables capacity means that we can generate more than we need resulting in all the expenses associated with curtailment that you refer to but at times during the winter months there is a genuine shortage of generation because of intermittency of renewable generation. Much of the year we are relying on imports to fill the gaps but when they are tight prices surge. As @michaels suggests ToU tariffs play a role in managing demand or we might well need rationing. ToU pricing also includes the provision for surge (negative) pricing to enable consumers to dump excess generation into the garden which presumably is a cheaper option than curtailment. I have enjoyed many afternoons of negative pricing this summer.

These problems of generation shortages and excesses are solely the result of our renewables focussed generation policies (aka Net Zero madness) and lack of storage and the development of smart tariffs to manage demand is an integral part of the roll out of renewables. As you have pointed out the UK has some of the highest energy costs (both domestic and commercial) in the world but because of my solar panels and smart tariff I am not (so far) feeling these. Given the furore in the media about energy prices someone else must be taking my pain. 

The fact that you are a climate change denier discredits your position. You can either choose to look at things rationally and scientifically, or you can choose conspiracy theories, if you choose the latter then your arguments lack merit. 

And the evidence that I am a climate denier is…? 

JKenH

In relation to confidence in using a computer here is a useful document from Age UK https://www.ageuk.org.uk/siteassets/documents/reports-and-publications/reports-and-briefings/active-communities/internet-use-statistics-june-2024.pdf

Just one quote

Newbie_John

GingerTim said:

Lack of enthusiasm or lack of knowledge/awareness?

Totally agree with this question. A lot of people I know have no idea how much electricity they use, they have no idea of their electricity rate, all they know is that they are charged something like £50/month and say it's a lot. 

Till 2021 I was in the same boat, didn't really care about any of that, even while being on E7 tarrif (no gas) and not using any heating at night while being charged premium during the day for years. When the prices started going up it pushed me to understand how these things work.. 

2022 moved away from E7 to basic tariff and saved 30% a year
2023 got a smart meter and switched to Agile - saved another 30% - this was a great time as I understood how my house works, how I can have sometimes 25*C in the middle of winter for free, what costs the most (heating, hot water tank) and what can be fully ignored (TV, lights..)
2025 moved to 5p/kWh at night tariff and saved another 30% to the point that my bills are much cheaper now that they were in 2019

It's clearly lack of knowledge, for exmaple from my family point of view running dishwasher during the day (costing 50p) or at night (costing 10p) costs the same - "pennies" so it really makes no difference, nobody sees the accumulated effect that changing the habit just on one item can save you £40/year, and that can be applied to many more.

To make most of ToU you need to either invest a lot in things like Heat Pumps, EV, battery, solar etc. (high costs) or change your habits - and both are difficult sadly.