Are EV and ToU tariffs unfair to other electricity customers?

Scot_39

EVs are more of a guaranteed major kWh energy year round use than say Cosy - designed for specific electrical heating like ASHP and other electric systems.

Thats an important year round change of mix and loadings for a renewables generator / operator like Octopus - who at least in press speak openly about wasted power and curtailment - so would arguably rather sell for 8.5p than see it not sell at all (or get curtailment compensation).

MWT

JKenH said:

Scot_39 said:

Providing they only reflect the half hourly wholesale rate variations typical for those times of day - NO.

They are simply tge modern day evolution of older E7 and E9/E10 style tariffs.  Which charged less at traditional off peaks.

And arguably tariffs like Cosy and its 51% above day rate peak 4-7 benefits peak demand - in tge same way my E10s 4-8pm peak rate slots encourages me to use any heavy load items in the 1-4 and 8-10pm gmt slots either side.

And so if anthing might reduce the demand so not only tge peak price but average daily prices in tge future supply rather than live tracker type market the UK cap is based on.

But Octopus Go EV tariff daytime rate at 27.48p is only marginally above SVT  (25.73p) and paired with 5 hours at 8.5p is very attractive, if like me you heat your water by electricity, but is only available to those who own an EV. There is no peak teatime (4-7) rate so it doesn’t shift usage away from that high demand slot. There is no link to the wholesale price...

Octopus Go, is a legacy tariff these days, Intelligent Octopus Go is a better comparison as it highlights the other utility beyond wholesale pricing variability, which is having a large fleet of EVs available to consume on command.

There are times when Octopus will have the ability make a profit (or reduce a loss) by being able to command large scale consumption at short notice, this is what having a large network of connected and most importantly, controlled high consumption devices delivers to a supplier, and what allows the low pricing to be disconnected from simple wholesale pricing.

The control point is key, this isn't something you can participate in with any device that the customer has to decide to turn on or off, or something that doesn't provide a useful level of consumption, you have to be able to cede control to Octopus for a significant period of time.

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JKenH

Thank you everyone for all the responses, the consensus of which appears to be they are fair and don’t negatively impact those who can’t access them. I would presume that most who responded are on something other than SVT. 

FWIW I am on Octopus Agile. Over the last 3 months Octopus Watch tells me the cost of my electricity including SC has been £128.58 compared to £195.19 on a standard tariff. In reality I have saved a bit less than that as during plunge pricing I have maxed out my 2 immersion heaters and then lost more heat before the water was used as a consequence. I can tell myself that by doing so I have avoided constraint payments and saved my fellow SVT users some expense in future bills. 

My view is that tariffs such as IOG and Agile do benefit the grid as in their different ways they do help to smooth out the peaks and troughs of supply and demand and will be an essential part of managing the grid as more renewables are added. In that respect they are fair. However I don’t think tariffs like Octopus Go are beneficial as they are not price or demand sensitive but still offer significant savings to those who qualify. In fact when used in conjunction with batteries they can at times be detrimental to the grid particularly in summer months as they encourage export to the grid even when there is an excess of solar generation and wholesale prices are negative. In fact this is positively encouraged on this forum.


 In theory one could fill batteries up with Agile at cheap overnight rates and discharge during the day but the overnight rates are much higher and after cycling losses, other than the odd day, this is not worthwhile.

https://agilebuddy.uk/historic/agile-stats

In fact looking at the above statistics it seems that generally prices in the afternoon are if anything lower now than overnight and will continue to fall as more. Solar PV is rolled out and Octopus Go is increasingly hard to defend as a grid management exercise. A significant discount is given for periods when the grid is not significantly oversupplied but there is no incentive to reduce generation in the peak 4-7pm period. 

If Go was available to me for the winter months I would snap it up.

badmemory

You have saved that money due to your actions.  It is a similar saving to someone who goes into the most expensive shop in town compared to someone who checks out the price in several places before they buy.  Although if we were to be totally honest then if every single person checked out all prices before they bought then all our prices would go up.

tlcgrantham

@JKenH “If Go was available to me for winter months I would snap it up” Totally agree. But why shouldn’t it be available to all like the old Go Faster was?

JKenH

tlcgrantham said:

@JKenH “If Go was available to me for winter months I would snap it up” Totally agree. But why shouldn’t it be available to all like the old Go Faster was?

I don’t have an EV.

Newbie_John

badmemory said:

You have saved that money due to your actions.  It is a similar saving to someone who goes into the most expensive shop in town compared to someone who checks out the price in several places before they buy.  Although if we were to be totally honest then if every single person checked out all prices before they bought then all our prices would go up.

I think the opposite, if everyone was checking then we would avoid paying high costs for importing electricity from abroad when there's not enough here, we wouldn't be paying wind farms for not generated electricity as it would be used, no need for paid electricity saving sessions etc.

UK has one of highest kWh rates in Europe due to a lot of factors, that could be taken down a lot.

tlcgrantham

Neither do I! I’m currently with Tomato energy on their EV tariff which they allowed me to go on despite my making clear that I haven’t got one. Originally Go Faster only required you to be “interested “ in acquiring an EV not to actually have one.

dunstonh

Thank you everyone for all the responses, the consensus of which appears to be they are fair and don’t negatively impact those who can’t access them. I would presume that most who responded are on something other than SVT. 

Why do you think people cannot access them?
Economy 7 was introduced in 1978 and is accessible.

Chrysalis

This question could be applied to all sorts of services.

Is it unfair some people get a good retentions deal and others dont?
Is it fair supermarkets cater their best prices to larger households?

Ultimately though TOU is available to everyone, its a choice of whether to use the tariffs, and a choice of to get a smart meter for access to the best tariffs.

I think the only people who could feel hard done by, are those who have no access due to smart meter communication issues out of their control.