Variable DD

Qyburn

They could do both, keep £115 credit while still taking variable DD.

MWT

Qyburn said:

They could do both, keep £115 credit while still taking variable DD.

Technically possible, but given the customer motivation for variable DD is mostly to avoid running any balance at all I don't think that would be popular...

Chrysalis

Qyburn said:

They could do both, keep £115 credit while still taking variable DD.

If they want to give me shares or interest, no problem.
the solution is extremely simple, shareholder cash injection for working capital.  British gas as I understand it are meeting the capital requirements.

MWT

Chrysalis said:

MWT said:

On a related point, I do wonder how much longer variable DD will survive as an option given the way Ofgem are enforcing the liquidity rules for energy suppliers?

I believe the number they are now requiring is for suppliers to keep £115/customer available, which is going to prove to be a significant disincentive to allow variable DD as an option...

Maybe Ofgem should look at all the debt balances before that.  Suppliers managed fine in the days before people were racking up thousands of debt on fixed direct debit systems.

Shareholders can supply working capital.

Also consider credit balances dont have the 12 month protection.  The last time I left my supplier (Octopus) to manage my balance I had over £1000 credit in the middle of December.  Not doing that again.  Their fixed direct debit system wants me to set a monthly payment of over £400 due to a massively inflated EAC value.

Working capital isn't the problem, it is specifically cash that is the issue as it effectively removes the ability to use this amount of cash as part of the working capital at it cannot be used within the business, it just has to sit, doing nothing.

Shareholders come and go, but beyond the initial offerings or subsequent rights issues they do not provide working capital, but as a private company, spinning off Kraken could raise a lot of cash though..

I get your point about the motivation to avoid having a positive balance, but like so many things at Ofgem there is a constant tension between holding the suppliers to a raft of artificial measures while at the same time preventing them from properly managing and collecting payments from customers in a timely manner. 

They require suppliers to avoid letting customers go into debt, but at the same time actively prevent them from implementing measures that could prevent or at least limit that from happening, like enforcing PAYG meters...

WiserMiser

Spoonie_Turtle said:

WiserMiser said:

Octopus sent me an email meter reading request just before noon today.  Send a reading this afternoon and received the statement earlier this evening.

…

DD would have been requested on 7 August but I've just paid by Amex.  That's also been credited.

It doesn't get much better than that !

Oh so can you still choose to pay it off by card before they request the vDD?

@Spoonie_Turtle Yes.  I let the occasional DD go through because otherwise the bank would be probably be stupid enough to cancel it after 13 months without even bothering to tell me.  (That'll probably catch quite a few people who have set up DDs for the Blackwall / Silvertown tunnels but don't use them for a while.)

Similarly, tickling the Octopus should stop them charging the higher rates associated with Pay On Receipt of Bill.

WiserMiser

MWT said:

On a related point, I do wonder how much longer variable DD will survive as an option given the way Ofgem are enforcing the liquidity rules for energy suppliers?

I believe the number they are now requiring is for suppliers to keep £115/customer available, which is going to prove to be a significant disincentive to allow variable DD as an option...

Ofgem should make all suppliers offer Monthly Variable Direct Debit. So-called 'Fixed DDs' are a contradiction in terms. They cause endless confusion (some people still don't realise it's not All You Can Eat) and it's become even more meaningless with the Price Cap now changing every three months.

Better still, Ofgem should make MVDD the default. Those who are unwilling or unable to budget for themselves would be able to stay with 'Fixed' DDs.

MWT

WiserMiser said:

MWT said:

On a related point, I do wonder how much longer variable DD will survive as an option given the way Ofgem are enforcing the liquidity rules for energy suppliers?

I believe the number they are now requiring is for suppliers to keep £115/customer available, which is going to prove to be a significant disincentive to allow variable DD as an option...

Ofgem should make all suppliers offer Monthly Variable Direct Debit. So-called 'Fixed DDs' are a contradiction in terms. They cause endless confusion (some people still don't realise it's not All You Can Eat) and it's become even more meaningless with the Price Cap now changing every three months.

Better still, Ofgem should make MVDD the default. Those who are unwilling or unable to budget for themselves would be able to stay with 'Fixed' DDs.

I tend to prefer the US version which is usually called 'Level billing' and tends to remain unchanged for 12 months with a catch-up bill in month 12 to bring you back to zero with a new level set for the next 12 months.

If you want to make variable DD the default then you are going to have to match that with either a deposit to cover one months average cost, or reduce the liquidity requirement.

Energy suppliers already have to buy forward to cover anticipated use months ahead of time, so you can only constrain cash-flow so far before something breaks and giving new customers free credit by default feels like that would break the model... 

It also runs counter to making suppliers responsible for limiting the amount of debt customers can get into...

WiserMiser

MWT said:

WiserMiser said:

MWT said:

On a related point, I do wonder how much longer variable DD will survive as an option given the way Ofgem are enforcing the liquidity rules for energy suppliers?

I believe the number they are now requiring is for suppliers to keep £115/customer available, which is going to prove to be a significant disincentive to allow variable DD as an option...

Ofgem should make all suppliers offer Monthly Variable Direct Debit. So-called 'Fixed DDs' are a contradiction in terms. They cause endless confusion (some people still don't realise it's not All You Can Eat) and it's become even more meaningless with the Price Cap now changing every three months.

Better still, Ofgem should make MVDD the default. Those who are unwilling or unable to budget for themselves would be able to stay with 'Fixed' DDs.

I tend to prefer the US version which is usually called 'Level billing' and tends to remain unchanged for 12 months with a catch-up bill in month 12 to bring you back to zero with a new level set for the next 12 months.

If you want to make variable DD the default then you are going to have to match that with either a deposit to cover one months average cost, or reduce the liquidity requirement.

Energy suppliers already have to buy forward to cover anticipated use months ahead of time, so you can only constrain cash-flow so far before something breaks and giving new customers free credit by default feels like that would break the model... 

It also runs counter to making suppliers responsible for limiting the amount of debt customers can get into...

Historically we managed OK with Variable billing for many, decades before privatisation (although payment then was on receipt of bill.)

Perhaps standing charges should be paid in advance but kWh usage paid in arrears, just like the traditional method for line rental and call charges on landline phones.  That would give some liquidity.  Suppliers could have to lodge a bond if greater liquidity is required.

Customers are more likely to get into debt with 'Fixed' DDs because it can take far longer to become aware of excessive consumption; there are frequent posts from people complaining that their 'Fixed' DD has been suddenly hiked even though they're think they're in credit (but don't realise that there are several bills coming down the line).  Billing systems that only bill at three or six-monthly intervals but credit DDs payments monthly are the worst offenders.

Scot_39

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Ah I forgot to say I'm on Agile; they haven't taken a reading since 17th April (and I'm mostly having to live life from my bed, although I could ask others to take a reading if/when I remember but I rely on them for so much else I don't want to have to ask for yet another thing unless I need to).

But if I can pay off the balance when they decide to send a bill, I think I'd like to do that (prompted by then sending the e-mail) and then my account won't be sitting in debit for two weeks every time.  At the moment it's in debit for a few days each time which doesn't sound so bad in comparison to if I left vDD to do its thing!

Do you mean Agile - the 1/2 hrly tracker - if so it wouldnt be simply reading the meter daily register on that tariff - as that would mean you wouldnt be billed 1/2 hrly ?

As it relies on 48 1/2 hrly readings every day to apply its dynamic pricing and iirc defaults after a few days to single rate SVT.

But it would at least get you accurate readings for the SVT rate billing.

When time permits - perhaps kick them by phone email etc - to see if they can re-establish comms (if your willing ask a visitor to see if the WAN light on your smart meter comms hub still flashing every 5 seconds ? ),  kick Octopus to see if can fix their billing connection, and although I suspect cash may not be your primary concern, if they do, if they will do a retrospective data request for the 2 months plus and bill you properly. 

PS

Not sure what has you bed ridden - or if temporary or longer term - but wish you well.

Make sure Octopus are aware of your condition - like on PSR too - if werent already.

[My mum went from a stick to a stroller for flat plus stairlift for stairs but in end a hospital medical air mattress bed and an electric hoist system (only the latter had a rechargable battery with any real capacity if iirc) - so losing power for days was a worry.  And as it happens they SP - actually turned up with an emergency generator when some houses in the street lost power.]  

Spoonie_Turtle

WiserMiser said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

WiserMiser said:

Octopus sent me an email meter reading request just before noon today.  Send a reading this afternoon and received the statement earlier this evening.

…

DD would have been requested on 7 August but I've just paid by Amex.  That's also been credited.

It doesn't get much better than that !

Oh so can you still choose to pay it off by card before they request the vDD?

@Spoonie_Turtle Yes.  I let the occasional DD go through because otherwise the bank would be probably be stupid enough to cancel it after 13 months without even bothering to tell me.  …

Good point I wasn't aware of, thank you!

Scot_39 said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Ah I forgot to say I'm on Agile; they haven't taken a reading since 17th April (and I'm mostly having to live life from my bed, although I could ask others to take a reading if/when I remember but I rely on them for so much else I don't want to have to ask for yet another thing unless I need to).

But if I can pay off the balance when they decide to send a bill, I think I'd like to do that (prompted by then sending the e-mail) and then my account won't be sitting in debit for two weeks every time.  At the moment it's in debit for a few days each time which doesn't sound so bad in comparison to if I left vDD to do its thing!

Do you mean Agile - the 1/2 hrly tracker - if so it wouldnt be simply reading the meter daily register on that tariff - as that would mean you wouldnt be billed 1/2 hrly ?

As it relies on 48 1/2 hrly readings every day to apply its dynamic pricing and iirc defaults after a few days to single rate SVT.

But it would at least get you accurate readings for the SVT rate billing.

When time permits - perhaps kick them by phone email etc - to see if they can re-establish comms (if your willing ask a visitor to see if the WAN light on your smart meter comms hub still flashing every 5 seconds ? ),  kick Octopus to see if can fix their billing connection, and although I suspect cash may not be your primary concern, if they do, if they will do a retrospective data request for the 2 months plus and bill you properly. 

PS

Not sure what has you bed ridden - or if temporary or longer term - but wish you well.

Make sure Octopus are aware of your condition - like on PSR too - if werent already.

[My mum went from a stick to a stroller for flat plus stairlift for stairs but in end a hospital medical air mattress bed and an electric hoist system (only the latter had a rechargable battery with any real capacity if iirc) - so losing power for days was a worry.  And as it happens they SP - actually turned up with an emergency generator when some houses in the street lost power.]  

Thank you, sorry I wasn't clear they are getting data just fine and I'm being billed properly, they just haven't taken an index reading since April according to the meter reading history.  (We were back and forth between Agile and Cosy for a bit but we've been on just Agile since March, according to the Octoprice website.)

[Thank you and @dealyboy for the well wishes I was mostly housebound from ME already and then developed dysautonomia which has me not quite bedbound, and able to occasionally go out but only because I'm bed-based the rest of the time.  Can't even say I'm room-bound because I'm not well enough to be moving about and doing things in my room   I am on the PSR since joining Octopus and thankfully not reliant on electricity for basic functioning/survival, only quality of life.]