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Incorrect UC review
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Spoonie_Turtle
Posts: 10,294 Forumite

I've had this message from my UC review:
I've done the calculations based on the statements I sent for review, and at no point have I exceeded £6,000 in capital.
I might redo the calculations another day just to be sure, as my brain is not reliable, but if it turns out I am right - advice how to proceed please?
Do I give them a reason, that I wasn't aware (because I did keep an eye and I genuinely thought I was under); do I tell them that according to my calcs I'm not over the threshold; do I ask for their calculations for months they think I was over; anything else I've not thought of?
Frustrating, I needed that brainpower for other things.
Hi XXX,
Please see attached letter. We need to know the reason why you didn't report increases to capital/savings above £6000 sooner. Please can you respond by 9 July 2025. Your response will be passed to a Decision Maker to see if a Civil Penalty would be appropriate before issuing the overpayment.
Kind regards,
Kind regards,
YYYY
Read the attached file. If the letter asks you to call us, please try using your journal instead.
I've done the calculations based on the statements I sent for review, and at no point have I exceeded £6,000 in capital.
I might redo the calculations another day just to be sure, as my brain is not reliable, but if it turns out I am right - advice how to proceed please?
Do I give them a reason, that I wasn't aware (because I did keep an eye and I genuinely thought I was under); do I tell them that according to my calcs I'm not over the threshold; do I ask for their calculations for months they think I was over; anything else I've not thought of?
Frustrating, I needed that brainpower for other things.
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Comments
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I think you need to ask UC review team when do they think capital has exceeded £6000. Ask them for the dates they are referring to on the statements provided.
I suspect that you have deducted current months benefit payments from the amount showing on the statements e.g statement shows £6800, but £900 of that amount is a benefit payment.
Ask UC review team if you should deduct amounts before any reporting any changes to capital ? Ask them for any guidance that would help you with reporting requirements.The comments I post are personal opinion. Always refer to official information sources before relying on internet forums. If you have a problem with any organisation, enter into their official complaints process at the earliest opportunity, as sometimes complaints have to be started within a certain time frame.2 -
Hmmm... sorry to hear this. Yeah I wonder if you could get anyone to support you in double checking if you aren't soon able to properly focus to do same to satisfaction of reassurance. If you're then sure that you never did I would be inclined to respond saying you haven't reported any savings over £6k because you didn't realise you had such at the end of any assessment period and that following checking your accounts information you still cannot identify such... would you UC be able to indicate to me when you think my savings were in excess of £6k so I can focus a rechecking of my records.
So yeah.. can't really think of anything beyond what you are thinking. I do wonder if they have some midpoint of an assessment period or the like where it is higher... let's be honest they are often lacking any credibility in analysing data (as my current ridiculous overpayment for housing element testifies despite me giving them the appropriate correct documents to arrive at a figure) and are frankly often clueless. I would include reference to end of assessment period in your response just in case there is an issue of midpoint period >£6k... it might cause them pause for thought and raise where you are looking at your capital calculations. If you do extensively analyse your data and find periods over £6k that are irrelevant I'd be inclined to list them and point out they are not relevant and include benefit income not considered as savings.
(If the issue it then is later established arises out of their misunderstanding of what should be considered capital or the timing of such I'd be then thinking more aggressive factual responses indicating you've received guidance/advice that you've followed and consider correct and that there is no overpayment and has never been capital over £6k for UC to consider at the end of an assessment period... and refer to official guidance/rules such as here which covers the issue of benefit income not savings until end assessment period and other possible relevant issues https://www.gov.uk/guidance/universal-credit-money-savings-and-investments .... put them right on back foot to back down, accept there has been no overpayment or failure to report a change)
If on other hand you do accept you went over I'd lay it on about having lots going on in your life, illness, any disablements (especially if related to managing money!) and difficulties etc and a complete acceptance overpayment should be recovered and you'll ask for help from others who will be better at monitoring your balances in case you need to report any savings changes in future as you feel no longer confident and able to do this yourself....... would be my line of thinking.
Just my thoughts.... estranged wife being reviewed at moment.. wonder how they'll see her £5k gift to HMRC (NI gaps)!
I'm sure you'll keep us updated. Good luck!"Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack3 -
I don't think they are well trained, my expectation is they have looked at irrelevant dates rather than what's in your account(s) at the end of your AP and also lightly haven't a clue about income and classed it all as capital including any CoL payments.
I sail pretty close to the £6k threshold at times, so need a spreadsheet to keep track of it.
Let's Be Careful Out There2 -
huckster said:I think you need to ask UC review team when do they think capital has exceeded £6000. Ask them for the dates they are referring to on the statements provided.
I suspect that you have deducted current months benefit payments from the amount showing on the statements e.g statement shows £6800, but £900 of that amount is a benefit payment.
Ask UC review team if you should deduct amounts before any reporting any changes to capital ? Ask them for any guidance that would help you with reporting requirements.
Let's Be Careful Out There1 -
As above, I suspect they have simply looked at the combined balance of any bank statements on the last day of each AP (or even on any date it exceeds £6k) and used that as evidence you have capital over £6k.How have you calculated your capital and what have you deducted to arrive at that figure?If you can remain under the £6k threshold at all times by simply deducting any CoL payments, this is probably the simplest to explain to UC - "I do not believe I have exceeded £6k in capital on the last day of any AP once the £X CoL payments [insert amounts and dates received] I received have been disregarded as required under legislation. Please advise the dates and amounts of capital you believe I held that exceed the £6,000 threshold"If you are relying on income not becoming capital until the end of the AP, I think you will need to quote the relevant sections of the ADM guidance (and examples therein) in support of this, but I wouldn't complicate matters by going down this route unless you need to.I strongly suspect the UC Review Agent has made the determination from your bank statements. They are NOT decision makers and are not conversant with the ADM guidance and any relevant disregards. Further, it is your responsibility to show that any capital can be disregarded under the law, not theirs, so you will probably need to provide evidence of CoL payments if they are not immediately obvious on the bank statements you have provided (so offer to provide these separately).Finally, if you do not agree with the decision they reach, obviously you have the chance to request a MR, and I would include a full write up with evidence as part of the request. Happy to help with that if you need any assistance.1
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Thank you all for the helpful advice so far! I think I will ask them which APs they think I've gone over, and then focus on those months for rechecking myself.NedS said:As above, I suspect they have simply looked at the combined balance of any bank statements on the last day of each AP (or even on any date it exceeds £6k) and used that as evidence you have capital over £6k.How have you calculated your capital and what have you deducted to arrive at that figure?If you can remain under the £6k threshold at all times by simply deducting any CoL payments, this is probably the simplest to explain to UC - "I do not believe I have exceeded £6k in capital on the last day of any AP once the £X CoL payments [insert amounts and dates received] I received have been disregarded as required under legislation. Please advise the dates and amounts of capital you believe I held that exceed the £6,000 threshold"If you are relying on income not becoming capital until the end of the AP, I think you will need to quote the relevant sections of the ADM guidance (and examples therein) in support of this, but I wouldn't complicate matters by going down this route unless you need to.…Finally, if you do not agree with the decision they reach, obviously you have the chance to request a MR, and I would include a full write up with evidence as part of the request. Happy to help with that if you need any assistance.
Most of the months are fine just subtracting the COL payments - from messages in my journal they have said they've taken those into consideration - but there are a few months when I then have to take off income from the totals as well to get below the £6k threshold. (I know income is never capital in the AP in which is received but just approaching it from the viewpoint of what is simplest in dealing with them.)
Would you advise still telling them at this point that I don't believe I've exceeded the threshold, or just ask them for the dates they think I have?0 -
Yes, I would respond advising that you do not believe that your capital has exceeded the £6k threshold at the end of any AP so therefore you do not believe there was any change to report.I would also make it clear the CoL payments you have received (that should be deducted), and that income received in the AP should not be included in any calculation of capital for that AP (citing the relevant ADM chapters).I'm not sure exactly how capital should be calculated so as not to include income. Let me read the ADM guidance and come back on that. Maybe hold off responding for now until we are clear on the guidance and how best to phrase a response.Can you go back through and at least get the dates ready where deducting CoL payments from the end of AP balance leaves you over £6k, then we can look at addressing those specific periods (as the others should be straight forward and presumably they are not challenging those)1
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Brilliant, thank you so much!1
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I'm sure you are already aware, but here is the relevant section of the ADM:When income becomes capital
H1050 Income becomes capital if it has not been spent by the end of the assessment period after the
one in which it was received.
Example
Pearl makes a claim for UC on 6 February. She declares savings in a bank account of £5,973.00. On 24
February, her earnings of £250.00 are paid into that account. Her assessment period is calculated as 6
Feb to 5 March and the earnings are taken into account as part of her income for that assessment
period. When the next assessment period begins on 6 March, Pearl still has some of the unspent
earnings so the bank account balance is now £6,105.00. In the assessment period from 6 March to 5
April she will therefore be treated as having an assumed yield from that capital of £4.35.I would state that for the following AP end dates [insert dates] account balances once CoL payments are deducted exceeded £6,000, but in each AP significant income was received which has contributed to those balances and must be deducted from any calculation of capital as described in ADM H1050, quoting:H1050 Income becomes capital if it has not been spent by the end of the assessment period after the
one in which it was received.The example in the ADM is a little ambiguously worded but the intent of H1050 is clear.You could go through each AP in turn, showing end of AP balances, deductions for CoL payments and deductions for income received in the AP, and then ask them which AP's they think you had capital exceeding £6k.0 -
NedS said:I'm sure you are already aware, but here is the relevant section of the ADM:When income becomes capital
H1050 Income becomes capital if it has not been spent by the end of the assessment period after the
one in which it was received.
Example
Pearl makes a claim for UC on 6 February. She declares savings in a bank account of £5,973.00. On 24
February, her earnings of £250.00 are paid into that account. Her assessment period is calculated as 6
Feb to 5 March and the earnings are taken into account as part of her income for that assessment
period. When the next assessment period begins on 6 March, Pearl still has some of the unspent
earnings so the bank account balance is now £6,105.00. In the assessment period from 6 March to 5
April she will therefore be treated as having an assumed yield from that capital of £4.35.I would state that for the following AP end dates [insert dates] account balances once CoL payments are deducted exceeded £6,000, but in each AP significant income was received which has contributed to those balances and must be deducted from any calculation of capital as described in ADM H1050, quoting:H1050 Income becomes capital if it has not been spent by the end of the assessment period after the
one in which it was received.The example in the ADM is a little ambiguously worded but the intent of H1050 is clear.You could go through each AP in turn, showing end of AP balances, deductions for CoL payments and deductions for income received in the AP, and then ask them which AP's they think you had capital exceeding £6k.
Let's Be Careful Out There1
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