Incorrect UC review

NedS

HillStreetBlues said:

NedS said:

I'm sure you are already aware, but here is the relevant section of the ADM:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65d336b3e1bdec2be1322238/admh1.pdf

When income becomes capital
H1050 Income becomes capital if it has not been spent by the end of the assessment period after the
one in which it was received.
Example
Pearl makes a claim for UC on 6 February. She declares savings in a bank account of £5,973.00. On 24
February, her earnings of £250.00 are paid into that account. Her assessment period is calculated as 6
Feb to 5 March and the earnings are taken into account as part of her income for that assessment
period. When the next assessment period begins on 6 March, Pearl still has some of the unspent
earnings so the bank account balance is now £6,105.00. In the assessment period from 6 March to 5
April she will therefore be treated as having an assumed yield from that capital of £4.35.

I would state that for the following AP end dates [insert dates] account balances once CoL payments are deducted exceeded £6,000, but in each AP significant income was received which has contributed to those balances and must be deducted from any calculation of capital as described in ADM H1050, quoting:

H1050 Income becomes capital if it has not been spent by the end of the assessment period after the
one in which it was received.

The example in the ADM is a little ambiguously worded but the intent of H1050 is clear.

You could go through each AP in turn, showing end of AP balances, deductions for CoL payments and deductions for income received in the AP, and then ask them which AP's they think you had capital exceeding £6k.

I agree that H1050 is clear, but the example is wrong as it's calculating capital on the 1st day of the AP not the last day.

Yes. Technically it does become capital on the first day of the following AP, but does not automatically mean there will be a deduction come the end of the AP. As we all know, it is the capital amount on the last day of the AP which is important.

NedS

Thinking how best to phrase it, maybe:

On [insert AP end date], I had a total balance of £8,500, of which £1,500 was income received within the AP leaving the remaining £7,000 as capital. I received £1,500 in CoL payments which are disregarded indefinitely leaving £5,500 in capital for consideration of my UC award.

HillStreetBlues

NedS said:

HillStreetBlues said:

NedS said:

I'm sure you are already aware, but here is the relevant section of the ADM:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65d336b3e1bdec2be1322238/admh1.pdf

When income becomes capital
H1050 Income becomes capital if it has not been spent by the end of the assessment period after the
one in which it was received.
Example
Pearl makes a claim for UC on 6 February. She declares savings in a bank account of £5,973.00. On 24
February, her earnings of £250.00 are paid into that account. Her assessment period is calculated as 6
Feb to 5 March and the earnings are taken into account as part of her income for that assessment
period. When the next assessment period begins on 6 March, Pearl still has some of the unspent
earnings so the bank account balance is now £6,105.00. In the assessment period from 6 March to 5
April she will therefore be treated as having an assumed yield from that capital of £4.35.

I would state that for the following AP end dates [insert dates] account balances once CoL payments are deducted exceeded £6,000, but in each AP significant income was received which has contributed to those balances and must be deducted from any calculation of capital as described in ADM H1050, quoting:

H1050 Income becomes capital if it has not been spent by the end of the assessment period after the
one in which it was received.

The example in the ADM is a little ambiguously worded but the intent of H1050 is clear.

You could go through each AP in turn, showing end of AP balances, deductions for CoL payments and deductions for income received in the AP, and then ask them which AP's they think you had capital exceeding £6k.

I agree that H1050 is clear, but the example is wrong as it's calculating capital on the 1st day of the AP not the last day.

Yes. Technically it does become capital on the first day of the following AP, but does not automatically mean there will be a deduction come the end of the AP. As we all know, it is the capital amount on the last day of the AP which is important.

Which was the point I made saying the example was incorrect.
We all know  except the person that wrote the example and those who signed off on it.
The trouble for those who don't know how it's calculated (I expect like some UC reviewers) If they go by the example then they will calculate capital incorrectly

Spoonie_Turtle

This is the message I have drafted (I can't go through every AP myself at the moment so just want them to tell me which ones I need to be looking at).  Will it do as a starting point, do you think?

"Hello, I didn't report anything as I don't believe* I've had over £6,000 in savings at the end of any assessment period.  

The bank account totals on my statements include the relevant disregarded Cost of Living payments, and income for each assessment period - which per ADM H1050 only becomes capital if it has not been spent by the end of the assessment period after the one in which it was received.

Please can you tell me which assessment period(s) you think I had over £6,000?

Thank you"

(*Dithering between 'don't believe' and 'wasn't aware' here)

Also not sure whether to add on 'and how you've calculated that' at the end?

Thanks

HillStreetBlues

I would replace "savings"  with "capital" I would ask how they calculated it  as then easier to spot their errors, and would stick with "I don't believe".

NedS

HillStreetBlues said:

I would replace "savings"  with "capital" I would ask how they calculated it  as then easier to spot their errors, and would stick with "I don't believe".

Agreed, I think "I don't believe" is stronger. You want them to understand that they need to revisit their calculations, not create the impression you weren't aware you'd made a mistake.

Yes, I'd add 'and how you've calculated that' at the end.

If your income sources are consistent (same amount/date each month), you may like to add in something like:

"...disregarded Cost of Living payments, and income for each assessment period (UC payment of £1000 received on the 10th of each month) - which per ADM H1050..." just so it's very clear to them this should also be disregarded (and you've provided evidence of the income in the form of the statements they are looking at)

Spoonie_Turtle

Thank you both.

Unfortunately the majority of my income is 2-weekly and 4-weekly so all different dates - even sometimes 2 PIP payments in one AP - and the statements cover 3 rate changes (beginning Apr 23 to end May 25) so that's another reason I need to know which APs they're thinking.

I'm pleased to have a message I'm now confident in sending, I really appreciate the help

Spoonie_Turtle

Right well now I'm just annoyed.

"Hi _____,

I have just spoken to the Universal Credit Review team and they have confirmed  the cost of living payments have been disregarded from the calculation of your capital/savings.  Your capital/savings were calculated above £6000 after disregards from 

10 March 2024 to 9 June 2024 and from  

10 December 2024 to9 June 2025."

I've just double checked the first three APs there, and my totals on the 9th of those months are approximately 7500, 6300, and 7500.  Take off 1850 Cost of Living payments and that's below £6,000 anyway even before accounting for the 2000/1500/1500 income in those APs!

I was prepared for saying 'my bank totals were above 6k after disregarding the COLs but after taking xyz income into account … (blah blah blah) … this is the capital etc.' but what are they playing at, here, getting even the simple bit wrong?!

I'll of course double-check the other APs (it's not as if I have anything else I need to be doing OH WAIT yes I have 🙄) but now I also have to work out how to tell them they're wrong without coming across as antagonistic.

HillStreetBlues

Spoonie_Turtle said:

I need to be doing OH WAIT yes I have 🙄) but now I also have to work out how to tell them they're wrong without coming across as antagonistic.

I certainly can't help with that
But if you need help with anything else.

Muttleythefrog

I think you might have to do calculation for each of those periods now...lay it out in numbers frustrating though that may be... 

... and restate you do not believe you have failed to declare capital appropriately as you still believe you have not in any assessment period (including ones they have referenced) exceeded £6k in capital once disregarded capital and income for the period is considered.