Incorrect UC review

NedS

I agree, time for you to lay out your calculations for those periods for them.

Try not to let your frustrations come across in your reply. Keep your reply and workings clear and factual, and nothing more.

I would start with something like "Please ask the Review Team to look at this again, as I do not believe they are correct"

For AP ending 9th April 2024:

[put your workings here...]

You can make headings bold by using "*" symbols (2 or 3 I think, can't remember) like:

***For AP ending 9th April 2024:***

The alternative is to skip the step of trying to engage with the review team, and jump to a MR in the hope that it lands on the desk of a competent decision maker, but I wouldn't do that just yet whilst there is still an opportunity to engage the Review Team and get it corrected at the outset.

Spoonie_Turtle

Perfect, thank you Ned.

(I definitely won't be frustrated in my messages to them - and that's much easier after having let them out here with people who 'get it'!).

I had wondered about an MR so your advice about that, i.e. trying to get it sorted without needing an MR, is incredibly helpful too, thank you.

NedS

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Perfect, thank you Ned.

(I definitely won't be frustrated in my messages to them - and that's much easier after having let them out here with people who 'get it'!).

I had wondered about an MR so your advice about that, i.e. trying to get it sorted without needing an MR, is incredibly helpful too, thank you.

Yes, the MR is kind of a double edged sword - you stand more chance of getting the correct outcome as a DM (who hopefully has a better understanding of the regulations) will consider the MR, but the trade off or flip side is that an MR could take months.

You get three cracks at it. First state you think they've made a mistake and ask the Review Team to look at it again. Secondly, request a MR and third there's a tribunal (often just filing for a tribunal with well presented legal arguments can be enough to get DWP to lapse the appeal). The earlier you can persuade them they've made a mistake, the better for everyone. Assuming your maths is correct, it's difficult to see how you can lose.

I will be interested to see/hear their reasoning as this will then give you an indication what you are up against with any MR, should that be necessary.

Spoonie_Turtle

I will be interested to see/hear their reasoning as this will then give you an indication what you are up against with any MR, should that be necessary.

That's the bit that's frustrating me, really, they haven't provided any calculations so I don't know why they've got it wrong, what mistake needs pointing out.  Which means me doing the work to cover all bases when it could just be something simple to be pointed out.

Still, I guess doing all the work now means if it does have to go to MR, it won't be much extra effort.  And hopefully doing it thoroughly gives me the best chance of it not needing to go that far in the first place.

Spoonie_Turtle

Just a minor update: ugh, done, brain melted, and pretty resentful of having to do DWP's job for them.  (But thank goodness I have a laptop, could not do anything that long on a tablet.  And I cannot imagine having to try to navigate this if it had been a few months ago when the brainfog was way worse!  Genuinely scary how many people they might be doing this to who don't even know it's wrong, let alone are able to stand their ground.)

Now just to wait.

TimeLord1

Sorry this has happened. How far have they gone back, and have they deducted anything or told you what they're claiming you owe them?

It seems they've set up a team to claw back billions, but that could also be incorrect about what they're claiming people owe. I was trying to reply sometime yesterday kept getting the verification auto message

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dwp-blocks-1-billion-in-incorrect-payments-in-drive-to-protect-people-from-falling-into-debt

Tell me they're are not capable of error.  Ask anyone previously on Incapacity benefits and tell me they don't lie and break the laws. 

Personally, I would seek help from Citizens Advice or Welfare Rights. They probably already have dealt with similar issues.

huckster

I would suggest that you request "written statements of reasons" regarding capital including full breakdown calculations. This is based on a decision having been made that you exceeded the capital threshold of £6000, which you believe is not correct when taking into consideration benefit payments received and cost of living payment residual amounts held.

Spoonie_Turtle

Thanks huckster, how/when do I do that?  It's now at the point I have to do an MR because this is what I got back:

"Hi ____,

I have spoken to the UCR agent and they confirmed that the calculations are correct. The Decision Maker will make a decision if a Civil Penalty is appropriate  or not.  You will then be issued the overpayment. Once the overpayment is issued you will have the opportunity  to ask for a Mandatory Reconsideration if you think the overpayment is not correct. Your request can then be looked at again by the Mandatory Reconsideration team.

We will get back to you once a decision has been made."

I did already ask about the calculations and they ignored that completely.  Not entirely surprising but I am fuming a bit because now it's going to drag on even longer for no good reason.

TimeLord they only went back to April 2023.  They reckon I was over the limit for 9 APs (including May/Jun just gone) although I don't know if they're going to pretend I continue to be over the limit and add a deduction going forward.  Joke's on them, if so, paying the balance for our holiday and the ferry puts my overall totals below 6k anyway.

NedS

You would request a Written Statement of Reasons (WSOR) after the overpayment decision has been made and formally issued to you, but before asking for an MR.

The WSOR should explain in writing the reason(s) for the decision (i.e, how the overpayment has arisen, hopefully with calculations) which will then give you what you need to dispute at MR.

If you are confident that you are correct in law and they are wrong, you may take the view that it doesn't really matter how they got it wrong, and your MR can simply focus on your own correct calculations rather than trying to identify and correct their mistakes. A bit like not getting drawn into responding to what the assessor said in a PIP assessment. However, in this case I thing a WSOR will be useful as it may (hopefully) show exactly how they have calculated your capital for each AP (I would be very specific in requesting the calculations as part of the WSOR)

In my experience, requesting a WSOR often stumps them as they are not something that is often requested, and often they have no clue who is responsible for issuing a WSOR. Combine that with the fact that the clock is now ticking for the 1 month deadline for requesting a MR. I've even seen CMs get confused and just raise an MR instead even though that is not what you have (yet) requested.

This guidance covers WSOR:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-overpayment-recovery-staff-guide/benefit-overpayment-recovery-guide

NedS

As an aside, once you have the overpayment decision (and revised Statements), you should at least be able to go back and see how much capital for each AP they have applied to your claim so you can at least see how much over they thought you were. From that, it may be obvious to you what they have (or have not) done (e.g, not deducted income received in the AP or whatever).