Returned three items, company claims I only returned one! £950 out of pocket!

devnull10

Grumpy_chap said:

The courier might well not have a record of the actual weight if the receiving depot has simply recorded the weight in the price band.  Obviously, the inconsistent communications do not help and, if what I suggest is the case, it would have been better for the courier to have simply stated "in the weight range 'up to 5kg'" or whatever.

They've been absolutely hopeless. The only reason I contacted them was because the retailer refused and I knew that if I could get the weight then it would prove all three items were returned. They also claimed not to have the dimensions, then suddenly an agent managed to find the exact dimensions from somewhere, but the weight was 0g! When I challenged this, they replied saying they held neither the weight nor dimensions, to which I pointed out they'd already provided the dimensions. Then they said it weighed 5000g and was 0cm long, to which I said that's almost certainly not correct (i.e. irrespective of the length, 5000g is I suspect too round to be correct).

I've shipped with Evri myself before for an eBay sale and they definitely held the weight because they made me pay more after shipping because I'd accidentally understated the weight! So I'm pretty certain it must be recorded somewhere.


Also - a few people have mentioned that if the retailer arranged the return label, then it's them taking on the risk - however I can't find anything in law stating that... I also found another post on here from ages ago where someone was similarly saying the same, in that whilst it's often quoted, there wasn't anything in the consumer rights laws which actually say this. Obviously if I'm going to have to go to court, I need to make sure I'm definitely on the right page with stuff like that.

Grumpy_chap

devnull10 said:

I've already tried the s75 route. Credit card company denied it because they said it was just my word against the retailer and in such instances they couldn't reverse the charge.

It would seem as though you have not tried the S75 route.

"Reverse the charge" is bank speak for Chargeback, where the bank really just give you a refund and take the money from the retailer.  The retailer can then contest the Chargeback.  This is a voluntary process operated by the banks and, because it does not really cost the banks a great deal, banks prefer it to S75.

S75 is a legal process where the bank is held equally and severally liable for the breach as the retailer.  If a breach is demonstrated, the bank is liable to repay the consumer regardless of whether the funds can be recovered from the retailer.  Banks tend to take rather longer and undertake more investigation before concluding a claim under S75.

devnull10

I just raised the dispute online in my account (American Express), but I will check whether they reviewed it as a chargeback or a s75 request.

Grumpy_chap

Most CCs require that you simply raise a dispute in the first instance and process that as a Chargeback if they possibly can, only proceeding on to S75 after Chargeback has failed and the customer raises the dispute again with a specific mention that is to be considered as S75 claim.  

If it was processed as S75,you would have known by the sheer volume of questions, data, evidence required and the protracted timescale while the CC establishes that a breach of contract occurred.

devnull10

Ah, it seems you are indeed correct - after checking, they did it as a chargeback and not a s75. I've asked them to reopen as a s75, which they have said they will do within 5 days.

Okell

devnull10 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Although court would be the right route (if a section 75 claim as suggested by Okell is unsuccessful) be aware that there is a long wait for court hearings, so even if you win, it will be many months before that money is back in your account.

To answer your earlier question, no, I don't think Evri can be summoned to provide anything.  It's up to the two parties to produce their supporting evidence and the court decides based on that.

Personally, I think a proper letter before action is likely to do the trick and get you a refund without going to court, but I'd try the S75 route first.

I've already tried the s75 route. Credit card company denied it because they said it was just my word against the retailer and in such instances they couldn't reverse the charge.

But you said in your first post that the credit card company "would not honour the chargeback"?

If that is what they told you they did not process a s75 claim

Okell

devnull10 said:

Okell said:

devnull10 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

The court works on the balance of probabilities, and with neither party having definitive proof of their position, that's all that can happen.

A letter before action will cost you the price of a stamp, and it just might generate a different response.  If it doesn't, you'll need to decide whether to spend the court fee in the hope that you win, or write off the £950.  Personally, I'd take my chance in court, given the sum at stake.

Yeah, I think it was more a case of whether unless I had definite proof, I'd no chance of winning. I don't want to waste another £150 on going to court if it's completely worthless, especially after losing so much already...

What do you mean by "definite proof"?

You say you sent the items back.  The seller says you didn't.  If you issue a court claim against the seller it becomes a simple question of who the court thinks is more likely to be telling the truth - you or the seller.  All you need to win would be for the court to decide that you are 51% more likely to be telling the truth than the seller. 

How do you think the seller will be able to produce "definite proof" that you never sent the items back?

(NB - The fact that the return was organised and paid for by the seller actually works in your favour.  The returned goods were no longer your responsibility from the time Evri collected them.  If you sent the goods back with Evri but they didn't reach the seller, that's the seller's problem, not yours.  The seller selected Evri, not you.)

Where do you get £150 from?  The fee for issuing a claim for £950 would be £70 I think?  Make a court claim for money: Court fees - GOV.UK

I meant that would a court perhaps just look at it as being a case of unless absolute proof is provided, they don't award it? I.e. the same stance the credit card company took, which was if it's my word against theirs, then in the absence of any other evidence such as photos of the parcel contents before posting (which I said to them would be irrelevant anyway, as that doesn't prove I actually posted those!), it still stands?...

Absolute proof is not required.  As already explained it depends on "the balance of probabilities".  ie would a judge believe you are more likely to be telling the truth than the seller.

I'm not a lawyer so I'm not giving legal advice but I believe all you need to do is to "prove" that you sent the goods back.  You do that in your sworn witness statement that you sent the goods back*.  Because the seller organised and paid for the return you can argue that after you entrusted it to the courier it became the seller's responsibility, not yours.

The seller might be able to "prove" that they never received the goods, but what's important is that they can't prove you didn't send them back.

To find in favour of the seller a judge would have to decide that you were lying, whereas to find for you does not necessarily mean that they think the seller is lying.  Do you see the difference?

If you lose the s75 claim with your credit card provider I'd have thought it was worth it to risk another £70 (or £150) for the chance of recovering £950 (plus your £70 or £150 costs).

But it's up to you.


* That is assuming that you are telling us the truth about sending the goods back.  If not my advice doesn't really apply.  (Somebody will come along with the question "Ah! But what if the OP isn't telling the truth?"  I'm assuming that you are telling the truth)

Okell

born_again said:

Okell said:

devnull10 said:

... I've tried contacting Evri to get the weight of the parcel, which is just !!!!!! in the wind - I've had 5 different responses ranging from we don't have it, to it weighed 1 gram, to it weighed exactly 5000 grams. 😡 It's impossible to speak to a human either online or via telephone, and the responses in getting to my case with them are absolutely useless. As I didn't arrange the return, I have very little options it seems. I've asked the company to review CCTV but they've refused. I suspect an employee has received it and only scanned one item (either accidentally ordered on purpose) and they're refusing to help any further.

I've also contacted citizens advice who just reiterated some templated response about notifying a company of intent to return goods within 14 days, and couldn't help any further.

I know I could go to small claims, but I literally can't prove I sent three items back, unless they get the weight from Evri, which they're refusing to do. So I presume I'd have no chance of winning.

Any suggestions???

Do you have their 5 different responses in writing?  (ie email, text, whatsapp etc).

I would suggest that you point out to the retailer that if you take them to court (which you certainly will if they don't refund you £950), that a judge might not look too kindly on their self contradictory responses to you that (1) we don't know what weight it was; (2) it weighed 1g; (3) it weighed 5kg.

Suggest to them that in the light of their nonsensical responses that a judge would probably be more likely to believe you than to believe them.

Apart from a court claim you could go back to your credit card issuer and tell them you are making a s75 claim and not a chargeback claim.  As with the retailer point out the contradictory nature of their responses and ask who a judge might be more likely to believe.  You with a consistent narrative or the seller with an inconsitent narrative?

Regarding the CAB advice and their template response, have you actually tried that with the seller?

I suspect the substance of the CAB advice is that you have a statutory right to cancel a distance order within 14 days of receipt of the goods.  (This is independent of any separate returns policy the seller might have and to exercise your statutory right you have to clearly inform the seller that you are cancelling the contract.  Bear this in mind in future).  You then have a further 14 days in which to retrun the goods and so long as you can provide proof of sending the goods back you are entitled to a refund even if the return "falls off the back of the lorry".

Given a rejected chargeback a S75 would be rejected on the grounds the company gave for the chargeback.

Perhaps I'm being a bit slow tonight, but what's the reasoning behind that view?

As a general proposition - that a failed chargeback means a s75 claim would also fail - I can't see it being correct.  As you've told us before, delivery to the wrong address would defeat a chargeback, but it wouldn't defeat a s75 claim, would it?

In the instant thread the credit card provider has simply rejected the chargeback on the basis that this is a "he said/she said" situation and that presumably the seller would simply challenge a chargeback if granted.  (In fact it sounds a bit like they've put it in the "Too difficult/Too much like hard work" pile).

That might be enough for a chargeback to fail, but wouldn't a s75 claim require a bit further investigation?

sheramber

devnull10 said:

sheramber said:

Who is the company ?

Size?. I subsidiary company of JD Sports. 

https://m.size.co.uk/

That figures.

Good luck with getting a refund from them.

devnull10

sheramber said:

devnull10 said:

sheramber said:

Who is the company ?

Size?. I subsidiary company of JD Sports. 

https://m.size.co.uk/

That figures.

Good luck with getting a refund from them.

How come? Are they notorious for stuff like this? Their customer service has been absolutely abysmal. They literally just said "we received one and we're not looking into t any further, case closed".