CPZ being introduced to my street - question about visitors & dropkerbs

Cannonf

Okell said:

... Now I KNOW if I need to park MY car on my drop kerb I need to purchase a drop kerb waiver (£15/yr) - this doesn't happen often, usually when window cleaners turn up to allow access for their ladders - but willing to pay 'just in case'

My problem is with visitors....

I can find no information on B&D website about whether visitors are allowed to park on drop kerbs in a residental cpz during operating times even if I have a drop kerb waiver or whether they are allowed IF I purchase a visitor pass...

Do you currently need to buy a waiver or permit to park on your own dropped kerb?

I'm no parking expert and only know what i've picked up from pepipoo and FTLA, but I thought parking on your own dropped kerb was an exemption anyway?

Certainly I've seen suggestions on pepipoo and FTLA that people can get tickets cancelled or not upheld at tribunal by demostrating permission to park from the dropped kerb owner.

Am I wrong?

On the off chance I'm right, I have no idea if the introduction of a CPZ makes any difference

(@Cannonf  -   you may want to try posting your question over on FTLA  -  Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on)  )

No... We've had the cutout/kerb for 30+years & never had to pay a dropped kerb waiver...
It was a one time payment for the Dropkerbs construction & no further fees

It's only due to cpz changes apparently that now visitors cannot park on dropped kerbs & houseowners pay & register their car(s) to be allowed to do so

This is the reply I got from the parking & design department in Dagenham using the email contact address found on council website

-------------

Good Morning,

Thank you for your recent email regarding Dropped Kerb Waivers.

We can confirm that with a Dropped Kerb Waiver you are allowed to park over a dropped kerb outside your house only and the waiver will only be valid for your own vehicle which is registered to your address.  Please note that this is only permitted providing there are no double yellow line restrictions in place and as long as you are not blocking anyone else across a shared drive, or blocking a wheelchair, pram users or any other motorist.

Therefore, if you have a visitor to your property in their own vehicle, they will not be permitted to park on the dropped kerb and doing so means they will be liable to receive a Penalty Charge Notice.  Visitors would be able to park on your own private driveway area and you could park your own vehicle over the dropped kerb if a Dropped Kerb Waiver is in place.

Please note, the Dropped Kerb Waiver is only required during the operating period of the CPZ which is Monday – Friday, 8.30am – 5.30pm.  Outside of these hours, the waiver is not required.

An alternative is that you are able to apply for visitor permits which will allow visitors to park in any allocated residents parking bay for the CPZ.

noitsnotme

If the hairdresser and old neighbours still wish to meet at your house then perhaps they should both pay for their own dropped kerb waiver (pay you and you register them). Either that or the hairdresser needs to start visiting them at their own house.

HillStreetBlues

Cannonf said:

Not usually, most cars that park (up our end at least) belong to neighbours with 2 (or more) cars/vans...I have only 1 & so does 4 other neighbours.

Those with 2 cars usually park one off-road & the other on their drop kerb while 2 houses opposite me, who have more than 2 cars, park their extra cars outside 2 OTHER houses which don't have dropkerbs outside (they in fact have a shared single car width driveway between them - these neighbours afaik have 1 car apiece) - it's these houses where (2) cpz bays are being put & are 'available for visitors' - but will still require visitor permits

This pic from security camera shows what I mean
The white car with black roof belongs to house behind tree, the smaller one by bush belongs to the house next door which has white car on front - these are 2 of the proposed cpz bays.

You can see a car down the side of house which belongs to the non-bush neighbour, while a silver car parks (at an angle) outside the house with the bush, with just enough room for the black car to reverse out

My dropkerb is a 'double' shared with next door neighbour, who also only has 1 car

You'll also see the time stamp on pic, which if you look it up is a weekday @11am - during the proposed cpz times, & this scene is typical during the week (just the cars swap around)



If these bays are pre occupied by the neighbours extra cars it means no or limited spaces nearby for visitors to park (I've looked & for at least 24 houses at our end of road, there will only be 5 cpz bays available) especially since council states NO visitors can park on dropkerbs in a cpz zone

Occasionally we do get a car park up our end & see driver get out & walk 'down the road' until out of sight (they sometimes don't park in the 'bays' but across trees which are placed between dropkerbs.. there's 'just' enough space for a car to park without going over the edges of dropkerbs). You can see such a tree between my dropkerbs & neighbour to my left

I personally suspect it's usually someone visiting the [rental] office building at the bottom of road which has a (very) small carpark (holds about 10-12 cars). We're at the 'top' of the road

Apart from this building & a physiotherapy in the next street, there are no other businesses that can cause 'obstruction' with customers parking outside/nearby residents homes.

With cpz restrictions theres virtually nowhere for visitors to park now unless we start playing musical cars & residents move their car onto dropkerbs (as long as they have a dropkerbs waiver) & visitors park their car off-road.

Normally, A 'residential permit' covers TWO cars allowing both to park in any CPZ bays in designated area while a 'dropkerb waiver' covers only ONE REGISTERED car to be allowed to park on residents own dropkerb.
(If these neighbours want to be able to park ANY of their cars on dropkerbs, they need to purchase a dropkerb waiver for EACH car)

 Any visitors to cpz zone need a 'visitor permit' to be allowed to park in any cpz bay that's available, but there no such permit to allow a visitor to park on a residents dropkerb (even with permission),or even if houseowners has a dropkerbs waiver - according to council it's illegal & visitor risk a penalty fine

IMHO the cpz system is totally F... Screwed up

Seems LBBD wants to increase revenue, and what better way than to target motorists.

Cannonf

HillStreetBlues said:

Seems LBBD wants to increase revenue, and what better way than to target motorists.

Exactly.
In fact, now that they've started painting the lines down our road I can now tell you that there are EXACTLY 23 cpz parking bays to serve 64 houses.

AND I decided to recheck permit prices & they've also increased them

In pre-April dropped kerb waiver was £15 now it's increased to £30 & STILL only covers 1 car.
Visitor permit are now £1.40 for the & £3.60 for a day - I'm sure 4hr was less than a £1

It also seems they changed the rules for residential permits

Before I'm sure I saw prices were for 'first 2 cars' & extra cars were additional cost, but NOW it seems they have reworded the webpage to state something along the lines of 1 residential permit for ONE car is for 1 year - but still has 'up to 2 cars' showing in the co2 tier list.

My tier (101-140 g/km) is now ~£40 for first 2 cars , then £50 for 3rd car,£59 for 4th car, £69 for 5+ cars of the SAME co2 emmission


EDIT: can confirm. Here's the tier list document prices that were/are downloadable however I misread it,it does say 'a permit must be purchased for each vehicle'

As you can see my 101-140 'up to 2 cars' have increased from £36 to £40



Goodness knows how much the neighbours across road are going to cope.

At a guess they will need to register 2 cars (at least) for dropped kerb waiver (£30+£30), plus for their other 2 cars (co2 emmissions 119/130 based on their number plates) is another £80 (£39+£39) + I think they may even have a 5th car (it's popped up twice this week maybe just a visitor but have seen it multiple times) & that's another £39.. grand total = £140-£180

Hate to think about the other neighbor - they have a couple of vans as well as possibly 3 cars, that show up at random times during day, a transit type & an even larger 'box' van type

sheramber

It is to discourage car use. 

user1977

Cannonf said:

HillStreetBlues said:

Seems LBBD wants to increase revenue, and what better way than to target motorists.

Goodness knows how much the neighbours across road are going to cope.

At a guess they will need to register 2 cars (at least) for dropped kerb waiver (£30+£30), plus for their other 2 cars (co2 emmissions 119/130 based on their number plates) is another £80 (£39+£39) + I think they may even have a 5th car (it's popped up twice this week maybe just a visitor but have seen it multiple times) & that's another £39.. grand total = £140-£180

Hate to think about the other neighbor - they have a couple of vans as well as possibly 3 cars, that show up at random times during day, a transit type & an even larger 'box' van type

Surely the households each trying to dump five vehicles on the road are the problem which the scheme is trying to resolve?

In my CPZ, after you reach your second vehicle, that's it - you need to find your own place to park any additional ones off-road (or leave them outside the zone).

Cannonf

user1977 said:

Surely the households each trying to dump five vehicles on the road are the problem which the scheme is trying to resolve?

In my CPZ, after you reach your second vehicle, that's it - you need to find your own place to park any additional ones off-road (or leave them outside the zone).

Agree, If there's 2 drivers that live in the house, why have 4+ vehicles, 
If you have a 'company car' like the vans, they should not park outside resident, perhaps around the corner or something, if there's space, or in the company yard

Part of the problem is that I suspect a couple of the houses around us are 'multi-occupants' IE rentals (whether legally or not I don't know know although I suspect at least one could be illegal as they had a 'gym' built at the bottom of their garden, & I constantly see the driver of silver car never goes through front door, but always through backgate) this means there could be a couple of family's living there & if husband/wife are both drivers, that would account for at least 4 cars at a house

My initial concern is that for 30+ yrs visitors could park on dropkerbs with no problems but now cpz introduced means visitors can't park on dropkerbs anymore, even with Dropkerb waivers or visitor permits, & now they have to struggle to try & find a parking bay (remember there's only 23 bays available, In fact today I drove down street @ 11:30am & only 7 bays were free) or residents now have to play musical cars which introduced congestion & increased co2 emmission

So what are the benefits of introducing CPZ ?
They say it's to reduce congestion & co2 emmissions but actually it's to screw drivers for more cash

I'm also annoyed that because 80% did not respond (for whatever reason) council assumes residents were in favour.
They should've included a vote form/prepaid envelope etc when they sent out original letters & based response on that, afterall councilor/politians etc don't get into office based on number of people who didn't vote only on those that did vote

Herzlos

Cannonf said:

Those without can purchase a resident permit that covers ANY 2 cars (whether they can park outside the house is another thing), but dropkerbs owners  have to pay to allow only 1 REGISTERED car to park on drop kerb outside their house.
If council allowed 1 registered car & 1 other (visitor) then I wouldn't mind so much

Presumably only 1 car can fit across a dropped kerb, with the other car parked on the drive?

The problem with allowing multiple cars a dropped kerb exception, especially an unregistered visitor, is that it'll be a nightmare to establish that they are valid. This way the warden can easily tell that car X is allowed to block in driveway Y.

The timing of the restrictions makes me think it's intended to stop business/commuter use, which can be a nightmare for residental areas near stuff. I've seen some address the commuter issue by making an area permit only between 9-10 and 3-5 so that people can't park all day and walk into work.

sheramber

Cannonf said:

user1977 said:

Surely the households each trying to dump five vehicles on the road are the problem which the scheme is trying to resolve?

In my CPZ, after you reach your second vehicle, that's it - you need to find your own place to park any additional ones off-road (or leave them outside the zone).

Agree, If there's 2 drivers that live in the house, why have 4+ vehicles, 
If you have a 'company car' like the vans, they should not park outside resident, perhaps around the corner or something, if there's space, or in the company yard

Part of the problem is that I suspect a couple of the houses around us are 'multi-occupants' IE rentals (whether legally or not I don't know know although I suspect at least one could be illegal as they had a 'gym' built at the bottom of their garden, & I constantly see the driver of silver car never goes through front door, but always through backgate) this means there could be a couple of family's living there & if husband/wife are both drivers, that would account for at least 4 cars at a house

My initial concern is that for 30+ yrs visitors could park on dropkerbs with no problems but now cpz introduced means visitors can't park on dropkerbs anymore, even with Dropkerb waivers or visitor permits, & now they have to struggle to try & find a parking bay (remember there's only 23 bays available, In fact today I drove down street @ 11:30am & only 7 bays were free) or residents now have to play musical cars which introduced congestion & increased co2 emmission

So what are the benefits of introducing CPZ ?
They say it's to reduce congestion & co2 emmissions but actually it's to screw drivers for more cash

I'm also annoyed that because 80% did not respond (for whatever reason) council assumes residents were in favour.
They should've included a vote form/prepaid envelope etc when they sent out original letters & based response on that, afterall councilor/politians etc don't get into office based on number of people who didn't vote only on those that did vote

The council would argue that 7 unused showed addequate provision. as some were not used.

Your visitors would have been able to park.

If people are against something they will respond.

If they don't respond it is normal to assume they have no objection.

Again if they couldn't be bothered to respond then they couldn't have felt strongly about it.

Maybe the 80% do not have a objection.. They may not have multiple cars, they may not have visitors during the day midweek, especially if they are out working all day.

They may not foresee it being a problem to them.


You are fortunte that you can park over a dropped kerb.

In Scotland you cannot park over a dropped kerb , even with the owners permission.

The Transport (Scotland) Act 2019

Cannonf

@Herzlos
You may not be old enough, but I worked with people who lived in restricted parking zones, & iirc they told me that every resident had a 'visitor' placard that was placed into car that had permission to park outside their house, so it wouldn't be a problem for wardens to know if car was parked illegally or not IF they were implemented for cpz...

I also don't understand why they can't even if I'm WILLING TO PAY for 'visitor permit" . This means they would get more money when visitors arrive

...why can't visitor permits cover cpz bays AND dropkerbs ?, especially in areas that allowed Dropkerb parking before
You have to register visitor reg number anyway to get a 'virtual permits' for the bay so wardens can easily look up the details to see if the car illegally parked

@sheramber
As to 'if people didn't respond, then they don't have a problem'..I assume part of the problem was the timings WHEN we could respond.

While I don't have original letter I know we got it mid June & the web link for comment/responses was due to be active on July 31st  (a time when most parents with kids are thinking more about school holidays etc) for only approx 14-21 days iirc

The 'meet-&-greet' dates at local library I would guess would've been the same time span however probably not every day (maybe weekends only ?) meaning a possible 3-4 days to meet in person - once again during school holidays with the possibility that some people may've even gone abroad during that time

It also doesn't explain the neighbor I met who was going around getting a petition recently

 When I signed I was on 4th page (may've been 5th).. if we assume 20-25 signatures a page then he already had around 80-100signatures out of the 900 residents in the zone that were against the cpz.

I also assume he only just started as he lives in next street & our roads are the first to get painted so he probably had other roads still to visit especially those near the traffic lights that's about 6 streets away from me - THOSE houses I would guess would be FOR the cpz, especially those located at bottom of roads near the main road, as there are takeaways nearby - although those drivers usually park on mainroad rather than side roads

As for only Scotland not allowed, it seems we're also not allowed now, especially in CPZ zones, where we were before