Please help with this heat pump dilemma

NedS

FreeBear said:

benson1980 said:

Sandwich said:

benson1980 said:

Do you have a loft space that could accomodate a cylinder?

To answer the other queries suspended floors have no bearing (other than insulation properties or lack thereof) on choice of ASHP specifically so not sure what they are talking about there. Furthermore I'd also be asking for reasons as to why the existing pipework is deemed to be insufficient (flow restrictions etc). 

I do have loft space, but the technician said the cylinder weighs 180kg when full, so I'd probably need a survey and work done. 

The issue with the Vaillant system is supposedly that because it uses R290 refrigerant, if it leaks it could accumulate under the floor and be a fire hazard. Don't know if that's true. 

I’d definitely explore the loft option. You can get horizontal cylinders, or reinforce/ spread the load if installing a vertical. Plenty of installs (including ours) have it in the loft.

Getting a tank up in to the loft space may not be an option if the hatch is on the small side. Most HP manufacturers also give a limit on pipe runs to a tank. And as NedS points out, it is preferable to keep the tank within the thermal envelope of the building - It reduced the heat loss from the tank, and the "waste" heat contributes to keeping the house warm.

Yes, the recommended max distance that I've seen quoted is 10m for the primaries from the heat pump to tank. Mine are a little over that by the time they've gone up, down and around corners. Insulation here is key as much of that run may be outside of the house. Mine run in the loft space once they enter the property, and after 6 months I can see mice have already chewed their way through some of the insulation on the pipes.

matelodave

michaels said:

Sandwich said:

benson1980 said:

Do you have a loft space that could accomodate a cylinder?

To answer the other queries suspended floors have no bearing (other than insulation properties or lack thereof) on choice of ASHP specifically so not sure what they are talking about there. Furthermore I'd also be asking for reasons as to why the existing pipework is deemed to be insufficient (flow restrictions etc). 

I do have loft space, but the technician said the cylinder weighs 180kg when full, so I'd probably need a survey and work done. 

The issue with the Vaillant system is supposedly that because it uses R290 refrigerant, if it leaks it could accumulate under the floor and be a fire hazard. Don't know if that's true. 

I am guessing they are proposing a split system rather than a monoblock?

Does the 480 existing cupboard depth measure from inside the door?  With a slim cylinder it might be possible to have the plumbing all done to the side but it is obviously easier to plumb/maintain if it is in front.

Finally afaik it is entirely possible to mix and match cylinders and heat pumps from different manufacturers (although obviously not for split systems)

We have a split system (outside unit + indoor hydrobox) with a separate hot water cylinder. Not all split systems have the cylinder integrated in with the hydrobox.

I guess most systems will be monobloc nowadays unless there's a compelling reason for a split system and almost any heatpump compatible cylinder should do the job (the heating coil is usually sized to accommodate the lower flow temperatures of a heatpump) although there still need to be space for the pressure vessel, safety valves, overflow, diverter etc.

However, this could be a possibilty - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GGCtyCeuao

Sandwich

I had a second quote to install this system at the same sort of price, with the benefit that the engineer reckons he can fit it in the smaller space I wanted it in? 

Assure HP50-08-1PHMB Mono 2 AWHP 6MR   Baxi Air Source Heat Pump

Is this system comparable to/better than the Ideal? 

Sandwich

Any views on Baxi versus Ideal systems? 

Thinking of going with the Baxi system. 

matelodave

There's not a lot of info around for either Baxi or Ideal Heatpumps and I'd suggest that they dont have a very large installed base at the moment.

Most systems seem to be Daikin, Mitsubishi, Vaillant and a few LG and Grant.

That's not to say that Baxi or Ideal  aren't any good, but with a larger installed base, there is a lot more info, expertise and help around for the other manufacturers if you struggle with getting it set up and tweaked.

Likewise you need to be sure that you can get service and repairs for stuff that's less popular, so check where you can help if needed.

Its a bit like buying a less popular car, dealers can be very few and far between compared with the majority of marques and spares can be a bit more difficult to obtain.

FreeBear

matelodave said:

There's not a lot of info around for either Baxi or Ideal Heatpumps and I'd suggest that they don't have a very large installed base at the moment.

It could be that Baxi are rebadging heat pumps from another manufacturer. It would reduce the development costs to a minimum from their perspective and allow them to bring a new model to the market very quickly.

Sandwich

FreeBear said:

matelodave said:

There's not a lot of info around for either Baxi or Ideal Heatpumps and I'd suggest that they don't have a very large installed base at the moment.

It could be that Baxi are rebadging heat pumps from another manufacturer. It would reduce the development costs to a minimum from their perspective and allow them to bring a new model to the market very quickly.

I think so. The guy said the Baxi is a rebadged Midea product. Does that help? 

NedS

Sandwich said:

FreeBear said:

matelodave said:

There's not a lot of info around for either Baxi or Ideal Heatpumps and I'd suggest that they don't have a very large installed base at the moment.

It could be that Baxi are rebadging heat pumps from another manufacturer. It would reduce the development costs to a minimum from their perspective and allow them to bring a new model to the market very quickly.

I think so. The guy said the Baxi is a rebadged Midea product. Does that help? 

Midea are a huge Chinese manufacturer, and their units are rebadged by a number of suppliers in the UK. I briefly looked at Midea and their units looked OK (it's not like heat pumps contain new tech), the main reservation seemed to be with the controls which is the main difference between all the brands (given compressors and pumps are pretty standard mechanical items). That said, Baxi may be using their own controller rather than the Midea controller.

There are detailed manufacturer spec sheets for Midea available on the internet if you hunt around, and a few videos on YouTube.

FreeBear

NedS said:

Sandwich said:

FreeBear said:

matelodave said:

There's not a lot of info around for either Baxi or Ideal Heatpumps and I'd suggest that they don't have a very large installed base at the moment.

It could be that Baxi are rebadging heat pumps from another manufacturer. It would reduce the development costs to a minimum from their perspective and allow them to bring a new model to the market very quickly.

I think so. The guy said the Baxi is a rebadged Midea product. Does that help? 

Midea are a huge Chinese manufacturer, and their units are rebadged by a number of suppliers in the UK. I briefly looked at Midea and their units looked OK (it's not like heat pumps contain new tech), the main reservation seemed to be with the controls which is the main difference between all the brands (given compressors and pumps are pretty standard mechanical items). That said, Baxi may be using their own controller rather than the Midea controller.

Rumour has it that Bosch use a Midea compressor, so it is possible that Baxi do the same. Remeha is part of the same group that own Baxi (BDR Thermea), and they also make parts for heat pumps. Another part of the parent company is Sofath, and they were pioneers of geothermal heat pumps in France.

NedS

FreeBear said:

NedS said:

Sandwich said:

FreeBear said:

matelodave said:

There's not a lot of info around for either Baxi or Ideal Heatpumps and I'd suggest that they don't have a very large installed base at the moment.

It could be that Baxi are rebadging heat pumps from another manufacturer. It would reduce the development costs to a minimum from their perspective and allow them to bring a new model to the market very quickly.

I think so. The guy said the Baxi is a rebadged Midea product. Does that help? 

Midea are a huge Chinese manufacturer, and their units are rebadged by a number of suppliers in the UK. I briefly looked at Midea and their units looked OK (it's not like heat pumps contain new tech), the main reservation seemed to be with the controls which is the main difference between all the brands (given compressors and pumps are pretty standard mechanical items). That said, Baxi may be using their own controller rather than the Midea controller.

Rumour has it that Bosch use a Midea compressor, so it is possible that Baxi do the same. Remeha is part of the same group that own Baxi (BDR Thermea), and they also make parts for heat pumps. Another part of the parent company is Sofath, and they were pioneers of geothermal heat pumps in France.

As heat pumps are fairly standard tech that have been around for decades, I think the main differences between brands is in the controllers and their software. They should all perform similarly. I don't see any one brand claiming SCOP figures that are miles better than the others, as you would expect from mature technology. System design and implementation (i.e, what the heat pump is connected to) is likely to have far more influence on system performance as a heat pump does not operate in isolation.

Before we settled on an installer who used Samsung, we considered a Midea-based system, but rejected it as they wanted to install/use buffers and heat exchangers which I felt were unnecessary and only added unwarranted complexity to the system, so we rejected them but this was about the system design, not the Midea heat pump per se. IMHO most systems should be as simple as possible. A system with large pipework, good flow rates, and large emitters that is competently installed should perform well regardless of the brand of heat pump. So I wouldn't get too hung up on the brand of heat pump, but instead focus more on the complete system design.