Distance selling regulations - Car Refund in full, or can they keep money

Jenni_D

The CCRs also allow the seller to seek to recover costs due to the buyer's breach of (sorry, cancellation of) the contract where the handling goes "beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods." (S34(9)) Perhaps that doesn't apply in this situation, but that's certainly the angle the seller is taking (and seems to be mentioned in their T&Cs as I recall).

As to why I'm asking when the contract was formed ... if it's not formed until delivery/collection then there's no contract to breach/cancel - the buyer is simply withdrawing their offer and so a full refund must be given. (I thought that was obvious). 🤷‍♀️

Okell

Jenni_D said:

The CCRs also allow the seller to seek to recover costs due to the buyer's breach of (sorry, cancellation of) the contract where the handling goes "beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods." (S34(9)) Perhaps that doesn't apply in this situation, but that's certainly the angle the seller is taking (and seems to be mentioned in their T&Cs as I recall).

As to why I'm asking when the contract was formed ... if it's not formed until delivery/collection then there's no contract to breach/cancel - the buyer is simply withdrawing their offer and so a full refund must be given. (I thought that was obvious). 🤷‍♀️

Yeah, but....   (Maybe I'm having a senior moment!)

The OP hasn't even collected the car yet... so how could the dealer deduct an amount for loss of value for handling that goes "beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods."? 

I appreciate you are saying that you don't know if s34(9) applies here, but I would say that it definitely didn't (regardless of what the dealer might think).  If the OP hasn't yet had the car in his possession he can;t have had an opportunity to diminish the value of the car by his handling, and so the dealer can't reduce the refund.

Similarly I can't see that there can be any question of a breach by the OP, or why it would be relevant.  If a contrcat has not yet been formed then, as you say, the OP can wjthdraw his offer with no penalty.  (Although I think I'd be 99% certain that a contrcat has been formed before collection in this case)

If a contrcat has been formed then the OP is simply exercisng their statutory right to cancel a distance contrcat for a full refund.  Or at least that's how it seems to me...

Also I don't see why others (not you) have been banging on about the £500 transport costs.  I don't see what grounds the dealer would have for not refunding that(?).

Okell

Further to my last post I suppose - depending on what "specification" the OP ordered - the dealer could try to argue that this contract was exempt from the right to cancel on the basis that it was personalised or manufactured to the OP's specifications.  But if the OP only specified pre-existing manufacturer options then I think the OP can still cancel.

AIUI one of the purposes of exempting personalised/customer spec items was the difficulty the seller would have in selling them to anyone else.  I doubt this would apply to new cars

[Edit:  Again - and I may be wrong here - the dealer doesn't seem to be arguing that this contrcat is exempt, and neither do they seem to be arguing that the OP has diminished the value of the car be "excessive" handling]

pinkshoes

beno2k7 said:

They wanted to have it registered by the end of March as they get a bonus from the manufacturer.

They bought it into their stock, but this was to my understanding, not delivery to me.

They do have a clause that states things about delivery costs, but I certainly don't think it was expedited, I told them over the phone on 24th March morning and followed up with an email 30 mins later before lunch.

My email for cancellation was on 24th March

I was due to collect the car on the 28th of March

The car is already back on AutoTrader and says it must be registered by 31st March

Personally, I think this will sell by the end of today. The last one that was on there sold in under 2 hrs (I know because this is what got me in touch with this garage, I missed that one and the sales manager said he would source one for me and bring it into his stock)

As far as I can tell, this was not delivery for me, otherwise, he could have dropped it off at my house, this was delivery to his branch. I agreed to pick it up from his branch. I also don't see anywhere that the deposit is not refundable, and as I understood it, it was a reservation fee, but that is not in email, it was spoken and I have no proof of that.

I understand it is not an ideal situation, but by acting in good faith and cancelling at the earliest opportunity, they can now say it isn't a distance sale apparently as I did not ever pick up the car, had I done so, I could have insanely returned it used for an entire refund.

Did it sell?

Why are you cancelling?

I guess if they are charging you the £500 for the delivery to your local dealer, then you might as well insist they deliver it to your local dealer so you can get your moneys worth inspecting it!! You have paid for the service after all...

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Jenni_D said:

The CCRs also allow the seller to seek to recover costs due to the buyer's breach of (sorry, cancellation of) the contract where the handling goes "beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods." (S34(9)) Perhaps that doesn't apply in this situation, but that's certainly the angle the seller is taking (and seems to be mentioned in their T&Cs as I recall).

I don't see they can charge for any handling when the consumer hasn't handled to the goods so assuming this was an organised distance sales scheme (probably is for a car dealer), and nothing personalised as detailed in the limits, then OP should be due a full refund.  

Terms are correct so only possibility I can see is if the reservation fee is a legitimate sum to retain if it were treated separate from the contract to purchase but if the car is £32k and OP has paid £32k I'm not sure that applies and if it did why would they be talking about costs of moving the car about.

If this is a big dealership complaining higher up to head office or such might see them forgo the sum as so called "goodwill". 

Grumpy_chap

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

if the car is £32k and OP has paid £32k I'm not sure that applies and if it did why would they be talking about costs of moving the car about.
. 

When I was looking for a new car a couple of years back, some of the larger multi-site Dealer networks did have a system where they would bring the car to your local Dealer for your inspection / test drive. 
A fairly typical way things were worded was that you pay a fee for the car to be transported (and around the £500 mark seem common) and, if you then completed the purchase of the car, the fee for the car to be transported was refunded back / discounted off the price of the car, so making that fee almost like a deposit on the car.

That all seemed reasonable to me as it meant a consumer would only put the garage to that effort of transferring the car and paying the fee for the transportation if the consumer was serious.

Hoenir

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Jenni_D said:

The CCRs also allow the seller to seek to recover costs due to the buyer's breach of (sorry, cancellation of) the contract where the handling goes "beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods." (S34(9)) Perhaps that doesn't apply in this situation, but that's certainly the angle the seller is taking (and seems to be mentioned in their T&Cs as I recall).

If this is a big dealership complaining higher up to head office or such might see them forgo the sum as so called "goodwill". 

Who should foot the bill then?  If the order hadn't of been placed. Would never have required cost to be incurred. Of the £500, £100 will be lost as VAT. The net income only being £400. 

ThumbRemote

Good grief, three pages of bizarre arguments from people who should know the law better, and only a handful of sane responses from Okell. 

This is a really simple application of the CCRs. A consumer has ordered a product, changed their mind and wishes to cancel the contract. They are entitled to a full refund. There is no provision in the CCRs to allow them to retain money for breach of contract, incurred costs or anything else. Their terms and conditions do not and cannot override the law. 

Okell

Hoenir said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Jenni_D said:

The CCRs also allow the seller to seek to recover costs due to the buyer's breach of (sorry, cancellation of) the contract where the handling goes "beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods." (S34(9)) Perhaps that doesn't apply in this situation, but that's certainly the angle the seller is taking (and seems to be mentioned in their T&Cs as I recall).

If this is a big dealership complaining higher up to head office or such might see them forgo the sum as so called "goodwill". 

Who should foot the bill then?  If the order hadn't of been placed. Would never have required cost to be incurred. Of the £500, £100 will be lost as VAT. The net income only being £400. 

But you could make exactly the same argument about any distance contract.

If I buy a pair of trainers for £150 and get charged £5 for delivery, then when I cancel the contract I'm entitled to get back £150 plus £5 delivery. 

The retailer foots the delivery charge.  The fact that in this case it's a car is neither here nor there*.  If the dealer doesn't like it, then they shouldn't have decided to sell at a distance.  If a seller does decide to do business at a distance they have to accept the cons along with the pros.


*I'm often surprised here and on the Motoring board that many people seem to think that consumer protection legislation only partially applies to car sales.

Penguin_

Okell said:

Jenni_D said:

The CCRs also allow the seller to seek to recover costs due to the buyer's breach of (sorry, cancellation of) the contract where the handling goes "beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods." (S34(9)) Perhaps that doesn't apply in this situation, but that's certainly the angle the seller is taking (and seems to be mentioned in their T&Cs as I recall).

As to why I'm asking when the contract was formed ... if it's not formed until delivery/collection then there's no contract to breach/cancel - the buyer is simply withdrawing their offer and so a full refund must be given. (I thought that was obvious). 🤷‍♀️

Yeah, but....   (Maybe I'm having a senior moment!)

The OP hasn't even collected the car yet... so how could the dealer deduct an amount for loss of value for handling that goes "beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods."? 

I appreciate you are saying that you don't know if s34(9) applies here, but I would say that it definitely didn't (regardless of what the dealer might think).  If the OP hasn't yet had the car in his possession he can;t have had an opportunity to diminish the value of the car by his handling, and so the dealer can't reduce the refund.

Similarly I can't see that there can be any question of a breach by the OP, or why it would be relevant.  If a contrcat has not yet been formed then, as you say, the OP can wjthdraw his offer with no penalty.  (Although I think I'd be 99% certain that a contrcat has been formed before collection in this case)

If a contrcat has been formed then the OP is simply exercisng their statutory right to cancel a distance contrcat for a full refund.  Or at least that's how it seems to me...

Also I don't see why others (not you) have been banging on about the £500 transport costs.  I don't see what grounds the dealer would have for not refunding that(?).

If it has cost the dealer that to get the car there then surely if the OP has cancelled after a contract is formed, they are ok to get the costs incurred back?