New Government Heat Pump Campaign - A Help or a Hinderance?

michaels

brewerdave said:

NedS said:

Whilst I welcome any push to help roll out heat pumps, I think they are targeting the wrong market. Retrofitting properties which already have a gas or oil based central heating system is difficult and full of pitfalls which have the possibility to end up in bad installations where the resulting negative publicity is damaging. Simply taking a heat pump and installing it onto a pre-existing gas/oil heating system with non-optimum pipes (flow rates) and emitters (small radiators) is never going to result in an efficient system, which then either leaves the property cold or results in high bills. It's not rocket science to get it right, but it may involve redoing all the pipework and replacing all the radiators and many homeowners seem resistant to that disruption. It only takes 10% of bad installs to give the industry a dire reputation.

New builds and renovations, on the other hand, are far easier to get right as the system can be competently designed from the ground up. If they just want to achieve volume/numbers, it would be easier to target the 1.5m new homes the government wants to build, but they have backtracked on legislation forcing installation of heat pumps in new builds. To me, it seems like madness to still be installing gas boilers in new builds in 2025.

This - I had an estimate a couple of years ago, of ~£21k for heat pump, controls ,uprated rads and pipework (in some rooms only!), larger hot water tank etc BUT on top of that ,I would have had to pay to put the house right after the works ie redecorate etc.
I'm in my 70s so absolutely no sensible payback - planning for a new gas boiler now - probably in the next two years.

Can't help thinking if the grant was suddenly removed the average install cost would simply drop by most of the 7.5k - I am obviously a cynic.

matelodave

michaels said:

brewerdave said:

NedS said:

Whilst I welcome any push to help roll out heat pumps, I think they are targeting the wrong market. Retrofitting properties which already have a gas or oil based central heating system is difficult and full of pitfalls which have the possibility to end up in bad installations where the resulting negative publicity is damaging. Simply taking a heat pump and installing it onto a pre-existing gas/oil heating system with non-optimum pipes (flow rates) and emitters (small radiators) is never going to result in an efficient system, which then either leaves the property cold or results in high bills. It's not rocket science to get it right, but it may involve redoing all the pipework and replacing all the radiators and many homeowners seem resistant to that disruption. It only takes 10% of bad installs to give the industry a dire reputation.

New builds and renovations, on the other hand, are far easier to get right as the system can be competently designed from the ground up. If they just want to achieve volume/numbers, it would be easier to target the 1.5m new homes the government wants to build, but they have backtracked on legislation forcing installation of heat pumps in new builds. To me, it seems like madness to still be installing gas boilers in new builds in 2025.

This - I had an estimate a couple of years ago, of ~£21k for heat pump, controls ,uprated rads and pipework (in some rooms only!), larger hot water tank etc BUT on top of that ,I would have had to pay to put the house right after the works ie redecorate etc.
I'm in my 70s so absolutely no sensible payback - planning for a new gas boiler now - probably in the next two years.

Can't help thinking if the grant was suddenly removed the average install cost would simply drop by most of the 7.5k - I am obviously a cynic.

I think I'd agree with you

FreeBear

michaels said:

brewerdave said:

NedS said:

Whilst I welcome any push to help roll out heat pumps, I think they are targeting the wrong market. Retrofitting properties which already have a gas or oil based central heating system is difficult and full of pitfalls which have the possibility to end up in bad installations where the resulting negative publicity is damaging. Simply taking a heat pump and installing it onto a pre-existing gas/oil heating system with non-optimum pipes (flow rates) and emitters (small radiators) is never going to result in an efficient system, which then either leaves the property cold or results in high bills. It's not rocket science to get it right, but it may involve redoing all the pipework and replacing all the radiators and many homeowners seem resistant to that disruption. It only takes 10% of bad installs to give the industry a dire reputation.

New builds and renovations, on the other hand, are far easier to get right as the system can be competently designed from the ground up. If they just want to achieve volume/numbers, it would be easier to target the 1.5m new homes the government wants to build, but they have backtracked on legislation forcing installation of heat pumps in new builds. To me, it seems like madness to still be installing gas boilers in new builds in 2025.

This - I had an estimate a couple of years ago, of ~£21k for heat pump, controls ,uprated rads and pipework (in some rooms only!), larger hot water tank etc BUT on top of that ,I would have had to pay to put the house right after the works ie redecorate etc.
I'm in my 70s so absolutely no sensible payback - planning for a new gas boiler now - probably in the next two years.

Can't help thinking if the grant was suddenly removed the average install cost would simply drop by most of the 7.5k - I am obviously a cynic.

I'd be inclined to agree. Can get an ASHP (Samsung 8kW) for just under £2200 which isn't that much more than a top end gas boiler. A new DHW cylinder is going to cost £1200 to £2300, and then you may need bigger radiators (say £120 each). Without the £7500 grant, you might get a system installed for £6000 to £8000.

Neighbour had a new gas central heating system installed a couple of years ago. Cost him about £8000 which I thought was rather steep..

NedS

FreeBear said:

michaels said:

brewerdave said:

NedS said:

Whilst I welcome any push to help roll out heat pumps, I think they are targeting the wrong market. Retrofitting properties which already have a gas or oil based central heating system is difficult and full of pitfalls which have the possibility to end up in bad installations where the resulting negative publicity is damaging. Simply taking a heat pump and installing it onto a pre-existing gas/oil heating system with non-optimum pipes (flow rates) and emitters (small radiators) is never going to result in an efficient system, which then either leaves the property cold or results in high bills. It's not rocket science to get it right, but it may involve redoing all the pipework and replacing all the radiators and many homeowners seem resistant to that disruption. It only takes 10% of bad installs to give the industry a dire reputation.

New builds and renovations, on the other hand, are far easier to get right as the system can be competently designed from the ground up. If they just want to achieve volume/numbers, it would be easier to target the 1.5m new homes the government wants to build, but they have backtracked on legislation forcing installation of heat pumps in new builds. To me, it seems like madness to still be installing gas boilers in new builds in 2025.

This - I had an estimate a couple of years ago, of ~£21k for heat pump, controls ,uprated rads and pipework (in some rooms only!), larger hot water tank etc BUT on top of that ,I would have had to pay to put the house right after the works ie redecorate etc.
I'm in my 70s so absolutely no sensible payback - planning for a new gas boiler now - probably in the next two years.

Can't help thinking if the grant was suddenly removed the average install cost would simply drop by most of the 7.5k - I am obviously a cynic.

I'd be inclined to agree. Can get an ASHP (Samsung 8kW) for just under £2200 which isn't that much more than a top end gas boiler. A new DHW cylinder is going to cost £1200 to £2300, and then you may need bigger radiators (say £120 each). Without the £7500 grant, you might get a system installed for £6000 to £8000.

Neighbour had a new gas central heating system installed a couple of years ago. Cost him about £8000 which I thought was rather steep..

Attempting to price our install which was on the ECO4 scheme, Heat pump retailed at £3200, pre-plumbed DHW tank at £2000, 12 new radiators at £2000, volumiser and expansion tanks £400, pipework, fittings and sundries additional £1000 gives roughly £9000 is hardware (lets call it £10k for the things I've forgotten like 12 Radbots which I replaced and 40L of glycol which isn't cheap), plus 2 man days for the surveys, 7 man days for the install and another 2 man days for system design and certification paperwork giving 11 man days in total, at minimum of £5000?

That puts the cost of my installation for a 12kW heat pump with 12 new large radiations and all new plumbing in the region of £15K, and that's a reasonably invasive retrofit of a large system. Company will need to make a profit and cover other costs like head office, transport and accommodation for the installers etc, so I'm guessing £20k for the job is not unreasonable if you want the company to still exist next year.