FTB & listed building

youth_leader

Is the roof slate?  That could be costly if it needs repair/complete replacement, when you hear if your offer has been accepted you can decide what level of survey to have on top of the mortgage lender's survey. As it has been on the market for so long I would ask the EA if anyone offered and had a survey, they might sell it to you.  You would not have any come back if you do this,  the surveyor only has a contract with the person who engaged him/her.

As for the budget, I had planned on an annual saving of 10% of my purchase price of £237,500.  Worth saving whatever you can - you haven't mentioned the heating, is it a modern boiler in the kitchen?  My daughter lives in Belfast and so many houses have the older style boilers with oil, and a big water tank in the loft.   I'm pleased she has just bought a house with gas.  

 I did have some equity from my auction sale, thankfully - within six months I found out every floor was rotten.  Surveyors cannot lift carpets or move furniture.  Spent nearly every penny of my £20K equity having every floor replaced.  

Section62

jamesrcmd said:

youth_leader said:

The property was originally marketed last year for £245K, so the owner will already be feeling the loss of that 'imaginary'  £20K of money. 

As you have offered £200K against the asking price of £225K, the 'imaginary' loss is £25K.  Everyone will tell you a house is only worth what a buyer will pay for it.

The EA will be trying to get the vendor an offer nearer to the £225K, you could be outbid.  As you are a FTB without a chain the seller might 'choose' you, rather than other people who might have a chain.  They may give you a counter offer.

I would hope another nice two bed, without a graded listing, comes up for you. When my husband died my young adult children and I agreed that none of us would ever buy another listed building, it was a very very expensive mistake.


 

According to the agent listed building consent would only be needed for major renovation work. Changing the carpets and the front door shouldn’t be a problem. Are they being truthful? The deeds only say the roof, the windows and the brickwork are listed.

No, the agent isn't being truthful.  (they rarely are completely)

Changing an existing carpet is unlikely to be an issue, but other floor coverings may be protected - for example wooden flooring.  Nailing/glueing a new carpet over an exposed wooden floor could get you into trouble if you do it without the conservation officer's nod.

The things which are included in the official listing (NOT your deeds) are items of particular importance, but that doesn't mean you are free to alter anything else you like.  It is the building(s) and its curtilage which are listed, changes to anything within the curtilage may impact on a feature which is considered important and therefore could (in theory) require the consent of the conservation officer.

It would be unusual for an owner to be allowed to change the front door of a listed building without at least a discussion (preferably in writing) with the conservation officer.  The principal entrance to a building (aka front door) is usually a key aspect of its character - which is why some folk run into trouble just by painting theirs a different colour.

There are three things people buying a listed building need to understand -

1) The building is yours in name only.  Changes non-listed building owners are free to make are not things a listed building owner has the same freedom over.  You are better off thinking your situation is more like renting - with the local planning authority being your 'landlord' and anything you want to do with your home potentially being something the landlord won't like.

2) Don't get the idea that listing is about 'restoring' a building back to some ideal state.  It isn't.  Listing is about preserving the building and its 'story' at the time of the listing.  This is why people are baffled when they want to replace their listed uPVC windows with hand-made oak frames with hand-made bullseye glass, and the CO says 'no'.  The uPVC windows, if they were there at the point of listing, are part of the story.  The CO gets to decide whether this is a significant part of the building's story, or if a new chapter can be written.  If you don't like that idea then think carefully about buying a listed building.

3) Don't make an enemy of your conservation officer... they can make life very expensive for you.

FreeBear

Section62 said: The things which are included in the official listing (NOT your deeds) are items of particular importance, but that doesn't mean you are free to alter anything else you like.  It is the building(s) and its curtilage which are listed, changes to anything within the curtilage may impact on a feature which is considered important and therefore could (in theory) require the consent of the conservation officer.

On the subject of curtilage - If there are any trees in the garden, you may find that they are subject to a TPO. If the property is within a conservation area, the trees will have automatic protection.

youth_leader

I regret not having any TPO's.  The developer that bought the station immediately cut down the sycamore trees in the drive at the front, the cherry tree, the apple tree and the japanese pine on the platform.  He's massacred the yew hedging and it looks like he's just hacked the beech tree about.  We had so many birds - and the bats.  I was disappointed to see you can 'pay' to disturb bats.

jamesrcmd

youth_leader said:

Is the roof slate?  That could be costly if it needs repair/complete replacement, when you hear if your offer has been accepted you can decide what level of survey to have on top of the mortgage lender's survey. As it has been on the market for so long I would ask the EA if anyone offered and had a survey, they might sell it to you.  You would not have any come back if you do this,  the surveyor only has a contract with the person who engaged him/her.

The roof is indeed slate. I have found quotes online for £6000-7000 for complete replacement (hopefully it won't be needed). The agent said no one made any offers, despite the property being on the market for over a year.

This is why I can't help but think: was the property overpriced when they first listed it or is there something intrinsically wrong with it?

Is the grade 2 listed building status putting buyers off or is there something else the agent isn't telling me?

Is a homebuyers' report enough to find any potential issues with the roof and the general structure of the house? I couldn't see any damp when I viewed it.

jamesrcmd

Section62 said:

The things which are included in the official listing (NOT your deeds) are items of particular importance, but that doesn't mean you are free to alter anything else you like.  It is the building(s) and its curtilage which are listed, changes to anything within the curtilage may impact on a feature which is considered important and therefore could (in theory) require the consent of the conservation officer.

It would be unusual for an owner to be allowed to change the front door of a listed building without at least a discussion (preferably in writing) with the conservation officer.  The principal entrance to a building (aka front door) is usually a key aspect of its character - which is why some folk run into trouble just by painting theirs a different colour.

There are three things people buying a listed building need to understand -

1) The building is yours in name only.  Changes non-listed building owners are free to make are not things a listed building owner has the same freedom over.  You are better off thinking your situation is more like renting - with the local planning authority being your 'landlord' and anything you want to do with your home potentially being something the landlord won't like.

2) Don't get the idea that listing is about 'restoring' a building back to some ideal state.  It isn't.  Listing is about preserving the building and its 'story' at the time of the listing.  This is why people are baffled when they want to replace their listed uPVC windows with hand-made oak frames with hand-made bullseye glass, and the CO says 'no'.  The uPVC windows, if they were there at the point of listing, are part of the story.  The CO gets to decide whether this is a significant part of the building's story, or if a new chapter can be written.  If you don't like that idea then think carefully about buying a listed building.

3) Don't make an enemy of your conservation officer... they can make life very expensive for you.

The official listing on Historic England only mentions the stonework, the sash cambered windows and the slate roof. The front door has been changed at least twice (judging by the previous adverts I found on Zoopla). On the same road, which is a terrace of several houses (all grade two listed buildings) there are at least four PVC doors. Did every owner really seek listed building consent to replace their front doors? Would they really take this risk? 

The council website states that they are not offering any advice as to whether listed building consent needs to be sought. It looks like they haven't even outsourced it to an external company, as most councils do these days. Their advice is to seek advice from conservation architects or practices... I was thinking of asking the LPOC (Listed Properties Owners' Club) but would they give me advice even though I'm not technically a listed building owner yet?

I can see there was a planning permission granted in 2013 when the previous owner renovated the inside of the house quite a lot (got rid of the fireplace and the porch). The porch was apparently not original and built by a previous owner.

Is the conservation officer really going to bother with finding out what work has been done to the house? Do they even have photos of how the property looked like in the past? I'm not being funny but I find it a bit difficult to believe they would go out of their way to check if any listed features have been altered. On the street where the house is it looks like a lot of the owners did whatever they wanted (PVC doors, double glazed windows, etc). Is the council really going to go after them all?

jamesrcmd

FreeBear said:

Section62 said: The things which are included in the official listing (NOT your deeds) are items of particular importance, but that doesn't mean you are free to alter anything else you like.  It is the building(s) and its curtilage which are listed, changes to anything within the curtilage may impact on a feature which is considered important and therefore could (in theory) require the consent of the conservation officer.

On the subject of curtilage - If there are any trees in the garden, you may find that they are subject to a TPO. If the property is within a conservation area, the trees will have automatic protection.

Luckily the property is NOT in a conservation area!

jamesrcmd

youth_leader said:

I regret not having any TPO's.  The developer that bought the station immediately cut down the sycamore trees in the drive at the front, the cherry tree, the apple tree and the japanese pine on the platform.  He's massacred the yew hedging and it looks like he's just hacked the beech tree about.  We had so many birds - and the bats.  I was disappointed to see you can 'pay' to disturb bats.

So sorry to hear this.

youth_leader

From the previous planning permission you can see who the conservation officer is ... did he or she comment on their listed building planning application? It would be good to make contact and know what you are taking on.  Again I would say that I feel we would have been much happier in an unlisted house without the financial drain the house had on our lives. 

I couldn't afford to stay in my listed railway station, all trades used to treble the price when they saw the size of the house.  Shortly after my husband had died the woodburner stopped drawing properly - when I went outside I could see the smoke coming out of the side of the chimney (sandstone).  I found someone to have a look - £500.  He said the high price was because he'd gone up without scaffolding, and I'm sorry to say he lied, he had used cement.  No good on sandstone as it is too hard and it can't breathe, he should have used lime and mortar   Fire stopped drawing again shortly afterwards, the repair was hopeless.

I'm very lucky here that my conservation officer lives round the corner and he's keeping an eye on the house which really pleases me - the developer has just tried to 'vary the conditions' of his permitted planning application and I'm glad to say the conservation officer has stopped it.  

Section62

jamesrcmd said:

The official listing on Historic England only mentions the stonework, the sash cambered windows and the slate roof. The front door has been changed at least twice (judging by the previous adverts I found on Zoopla). On the same road, which is a terrace of several houses (all grade two listed buildings) there are at least four PVC doors. Did every owner really seek listed building consent to replace their front doors? Would they really take this risk?

No idea whether they did or didn't.  But it is important to understand that listing doesn't mean you cannot change things, just that the impact of the changes on the character and fabric of the property have to be acceptable (in the opinion of the local planning authority).  Bear in mind the properties possibly had uPVC doors at the time of listing.

jamesrcmd said:

I was thinking of asking the LPOC (Listed Properties Owners' Club) but would they give me advice even though I'm not technically a listed building owner yet?

If they do offer advice it will probably be on a general basis, whereas you need advice specific to this property.

Perhaps take a step back.  Would you still buy the property if you were told you can't change the doors etc?  As per my previous post, one of the key things with owning a listed building is understanding you can't just make the changes you want to make.  If you are already contemplating breaking the law before you've purchased then you've got to think carefully whether owning a listed building is for you.

jamesrcmd said:

Is the conservation officer really going to bother with finding out what work has been done to the house? Do they even have photos of how the property looked like in the past? I'm not being funny but I find it a bit difficult to believe they would go out of their way to check if any listed features have been altered. On the street where the house is it looks like a lot of the owners did whatever they wanted (PVC doors, double glazed windows, etc). Is the council really going to go after them all?

Generally planning officers don't go round their patch looking for unlawful work, what tends to happen is someone else reports unlawful alterations, or the alterations are noticed on a subsequent visit.  The conservation officer may have photos of the property before/after the last work was done, but you'd have to ask them.  They also have access to streetview like everyone else to pick up on external alterations visible from the highway.

The thing to bear in mind is it is an offence to carry out unauthorised works on a listed building - this is not just a case of being told to revert the changes, it is an offence for which the punishment can include 'imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years' and/or a fine.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/9/section/9

It is rare for homeowners to go to jail for unauthorised work, but it demonstates how seriously this is taken by the authorities.  Now and again they like to make an example of someone.

Again, what other owners have done - PVC doors, double glazed windows, etc - is not necessarily "whatever they wanted".  These may be things that predated the listing, or they got listed building consent, or the conservation officer advised them that no consent was required.