Peugeot 207 - MOT fail due Blue smoke from exhaust

facade

angrycrow said:

Had one of these 1.6 prince engined 207s years ago. It drank oil by the bottle full getting through best part of a litre every 1000 miles and destroyed the catalytic converter every few years. I suspect the person who drove into it and wrote it off did me a favour.

See? 

 

A new catalyst to get the HC & CO down, and a lambda sensor to put the lambda right will likely get it MOT'd for a few years. (obviously anything else, like corrosion, tyres & suspension might fail it)

Try another garage, show them the MOT fail and ask them what they can do, and how much.

One of my friends ran a Vivaro for years that used to absolutely drink oil- a litre or so a week. He had to fit a new catalyst every couple of years to keep it MOT'd and must have had it for 8 or 9 years at least.

makara

facade said:

angrycrow said:

Had one of these 1.6 prince engined 207s years ago. It drank oil by the bottle full getting through best part of a litre every 1000 miles and destroyed the catalytic converter every few years. I suspect the person who drove into it and wrote it off did me a favour.

See? 

 

A new catalyst to get the HC & CO down, and a lambda sensor to put the lambda right will likely get it MOT'd for a few years. (obviously anything else, like corrosion, tyres & suspension might fail it)

Try another garage, show them the MOT fail and ask them what they can do, and how much.

One of my friends ran a Vivaro for years that used to absolutely drink oil- a litre or so a week. He had to fit a new catalyst every couple of years to keep it MOT'd and must have had it for 8 or 9 years at least.

Many thanks - I've texted another Mechanic we used to use - although he was planning on moving to the South Coast a few years back - hopefully he's still near us

angrycrow

On the plus point the catalytic converter is bolted to the front of the engine so fairly easy and therefore cheap on labour costs to change. Think it cost me about £450 parts and labour to get it through a similar MOT fail but that was 2017 so likely parts prices have increased.

makara

angrycrow said:

On the plus point the catalytic converter is bolted to the front of the engine so fairly easy and therefore cheap on labour costs to change. Think it cost me about £450 parts and labour to get it through a similar MOT fail but that was 2017 so likely parts prices have increased.

Many thanks   - £450 doesn't sound too bad    - although agreed on current prices bound to being more 

If the total cost is not more than £800 to get it through the M.O.T.   - I might do that 

If it's any more   - then it will be closing into the amount our mechanic quoted of £1200 (although that was rather for a Valve stems change)

WIAWSNB

makara said:

Someone on a Reddit Peugeot forum suggested trying this - 
Any clues on whether it might help the MOT pass?  Seems to have mostly positive reviews 

I don't know. Consensus does seem to be that these products can certainly help, and I think - from what you've described - that your Pug isn't that bad, so good chance a 'product' like this will help.

I'm not sure that stuff is the best for you, as it looks as though it's mainly meant to stop external oil leaks? Mind you, if it is successful at swelling/reconditioning rubber seals, then fair chance the valve stem seals will respond well to this too.

'Valves' are the devices that allow air/fuel into the engine at the right time, and exhaust gases out. They are fitted to the ends of round 'stems', and these stems slide up and down repeatedly in use. The valve stem seals fit around the stems, and keeps engine oil from getting down to the actual cylinders where it would be burned = blue smoke. These seals either wear out with mileage, or can even shrink through lack of use - quite possible in your case? They are dead cheap, but labour-intensive to get to.

If it's worn VSSs, then it would be a nice earner for a garage - their labour is free, and the parts £20.

I think you really need to get some proper answers about what is actually wrong with your car. Folk are assuming the Cat needs to be replaced, but we don't know this. Kwikfit said they observed 'white' smoke, which is usually associated with burning water or brake fluid - I doubt either is actually the case here. The other garage showed you a marginal level of blue haze against a light background - that doesn't sound remotely excessive to me.

My personal thoughts are - Kwikfit have a reputation - deserved or not (I suspect it comes down to the branch) - for going by the book, following a set procedure, but not having time-served mechanics who are prepared to look deeper. And the garage you took it to is even more guity of not follwoing procedure. I would avoid them both.

Ask your work colleagues, friends, family, neighbours, who they use for car repairs, especially if they drive older cars.

A proper OBD scan should quickly reveal whether the Lambda sensor has failed? If so, replace and try the engine exhaust tests again - see what happens to the readings. The mechanic should be able to suggest whether your Cat has failed (surely very obvious from the readings), or whether other tweaks can get it within parameters - eg, if the excess HC is caused by buring oil (unlikely), then it's worth trying some 'stop smoke' products, possibly that leak sealer, and possibly coupled with a slight increase in oil viscosity, give is a couple of weeks use, and then retest.

But first I think you need a proper garage.

makara

Update - 

Phoned a mechanic who is a good bloke and used to help us - but today he siad he no longer works on cars

He said Blue Smoke sounds like it's being caused by what the first mechanic told me

I then phoned a very local garage - and the guy on the phone said what the first mechanic did about probable causes

I asked if I could bring it for a look - and his senior colleague asked the guy to rev it - and showed me not only is there Blue smoke - the Exhaust is practically hanging off - and told me what the first mechanic did as probable causes - also saying it's practically an engine rebuild, and really not worth it

(he guesstimated £1500 to £1600 to repair - which was the non-cash amount (£1500) the first mechanic quoted me

His advise was whatever car I get next - don't get a Peugeot

When I mentioned the Prince VTi engine to him - he said what many others have - it's rubbish and drinks oil like anything

He repeated to stay away from Peugeots - and said Golfs are better

++++++++

After that I visited a local car dealer (a "TheAA" badged one)

He showed me quite a few cars - but either they were not in my budget - or wrong colour - or too small / too big

Since he's only 2 miles away I will keep checking his website daily

His advice - 

Ford Focus (but not the newer 1.0 Litre ones - as they are not reliable)

VW Golf

Vauxhall Astra - he showed me a BEAUTIFUL 2017 model - but it was £8000 (£2000 over my budget) 

He also advised a Skoda Fabia - but the Estate version as the non-Estate is too small

The most apt he told me (which wasn't in stock) for my budget and boot space needs would be the...

Skoda Octavia

- but he warned me they get sold very quickly

++++

I then looked at other "TheAA" car sales places in Hounslow online - and came across a very good looking car for £7000 (although there is one a year older in Slough for £6250 also) - which I really like the look and extras of -

Nissan Pulsar - specifically the "Tekna" trim that has all the bells and whistles

Any clues on the Pulsar?  It has the same boot space as a Golf

WIAWSNB

Ok, so it seems very likely that your engine does have valve stem seal issues. What I would want to know in your position is whether this is responsible for the unacceptable HC and CO issues? Just how far out were they?

This is surely worth a trial with a leak sealer? Or a stop-smoke viscosity improver. And possibly with just a higher grade of oil. Or all three :-)

What do you have to lose? How much is the car worth in its current state?

Mildly_Miffed

WIAWSNB said:

Ok, so it seems very likely that your engine does have valve stem seal issues. What I would want to know in your position is whether this is responsible for the unacceptable HC and CO issues?

Entirely feasible if the oil has killed the cat and lambda.

makara

WIAWSNB said:

Ok, so it seems very likely that your engine does have valve stem seal issues. What I would want to know in your position is whether this is responsible for the unacceptable HC and CO issues? Just how far out were they?

This is surely worth a trial with a leak sealer? Or a stop-smoke viscosity improver. And possibly with just a higher grade of oil. Or all three :-)

What do you have to lose? How much is the car worth in its current state?

In it's current state - possibly a couple of hundred pounds from quotes I've received (£200 to £311)

I have been seriously looking at Nissan Pulsars since last night (hadn't even heard of them) - and JUST missed out on one not far from me

- but the amount of leg room and boot space (huge compared to other Hatchbacks in the same class) - plus the general look of the car inside and out means I am now searching for a Pulsar

I did start off ready to buy the first Pulsar I saw online (although it was about a grand more than I want to spend) - a "Tekna" i.e. top of the range trim   

- but gave that up after realising all Teknas have Leather seats (we are Hindus - and want to avoid sitting on Leather)

The dealer who told me I'd just missed out on the "N-tec" trim Pulsar I wanted to buy from him advised me to look for other "N-tec" ones only - as its seating is non-Leather - and it's also superior in spec to the "N-Connecta" trim that replaced it (apparently Nissan stopped making the "N-tec" when they ran out of certain parts)

I'll either part-exchange the Peugeot when I get a Pulsar - or sell it to one of the companies who pay to take it away

Yes - it may in the short-term be cheaper to attempt to repair it / or pay to get it repaired, BUT...boot space has always been a problem with the amount of grocery shopping I do for my elderly mother and autistic brother

- and so I've taken this as a "sign" to change to a bigger-roomed car - after 8+ years of a tiny boot 

(207 boot - 270 litres   /   Pulsar boot - 385 litres)

paul_c123

From the above, I'd agree the engine needs a top end rebuild, and with the labour (you're not going to be doing it yourself, right) puts it about £1500.

Don't chase individual cars, there's thousands of cars for sale. You will be able to find the right one, the right age/size/mileage/colour, at the right price, in the right condition.