Peugeot 207 - MOT fail due Blue smoke from exhaust

makara

Low mileage driver - bought at 40 Ks in 2016 - still only 55 Ks

((EDIT - just checked MOT history - we actually bought it when it had 45 Ks - not 40 - so we've done even less mileage over the last 8+ years we've had it))

Kwik Fit failed the MOT on emissions - LAMBDA and CO and HC failures - said smoke is white 

Told to take it to a garage with Diagnostic equipment 

Took it to our regular mechanic who didn't diagnose it - but showed me revving it produces Blue smoke against another parked car's body - and told me the smell was distinct

He said this is a known issue on 1.4 (ours) and 1.6 Peugeot 207s with a certain engine - as well as Minis

(I imagine he's referring to the BMW style engine our car has) 

Told me not worth repairing as Labour alone will be £800 to £1000 - with second hand engine parts amounting from £1200 to £1500 in total cost of repairing / and offered £200 to scrap 

Also he mentioned we've had almost a decade use of this car, which he said is good going these days

TLDR - he said it's pretty much an engine rebuild 

He said the most probable cause is something about Valve stems - although not sure what that means

Should I pay Halfords £50 for an actual diagnostic

Or is my mechanic probably right

He also said avoid replacing with a Peugeot 208 - as they are known for a similar oil burning issue

I don't want to give the car up as it's London Ulez compliant - but I'd guess its value is around £1500 to £2000 at most

Many thanks for any advice 

teaselMay

Is it a diesel? If so it's worth a bottle of diesel purge (google liqui moli diesel purge) and a good hot run up and down a motorway. Engines don't like lots of low mileage journeys and they get 'coked up'

paul_c123

Do you have the emissions printout from the MoT?

In any case, it does sound like a worn out engine, and nothing much except for a rebuild will fix that. Not worth further diagnosis IMHO.

tedted

More than likely a Prince engine renowned for burning oil

makara

teaselMay said:

Is it a diesel? If so it's worth a bottle of diesel purge (google liqui moli diesel purge) and a good hot run up and down a motorway. Engines don't like lots of low mileage journeys and they get 'coked up'

Sorry I should have said - it's Petrol

Also my mother (before she stopped driving due to age) and now me are the short journey queen and king - very low stop start journeys 

Mildly_Miffed

Lambda is a measure of the fuel:air ratio, as determined by the amount of unburnt oxygen in the exhaust. The engine management should be keeping it very close to 1.0, optimal for the catalytic converter's correct function.

CO - carbon monoxide - should be very close to zero. One of the jobs of the cat is to oxidise CO into CO2.

HC - unburnt hydrocarbons - is unburnt fuel and oil in the exhaust. If that's too high, the cat will be killed in short order.

The 1.4 and 1.6 Prince petrol in those cars (and, yes, Minis - it's a BMW designed engine shared with Peugeot-Citroen) does have a reputation for excessive oil consumption. Very low mileage can be very bad for cars - internal wear is exacerbated by never getting up to proper temperature.

So, yes, all in all it's quite likely that the cheap fix for this car would be to swap a better engine in from a breaker's. If you can find one, because they all have the same design flaws.

makara

paul_c123 said:

Do you have the emissions printout from the MoT?

In any case, it does sound like a worn out engine, and nothing much except for a rebuild will fix that. Not worth further diagnosis IMHO.

The MOT tester intentionally wrote "unable to do Emissions test" as he wanted to give us a chance to get it diagnosed and repaired and retested - rather than give the usual emissions failure paperwork 

makara

Mildly_Miffed said:

Lambda is a measure of the fuel:air ratio, as determined by the amount of unburnt oxygen in the exhaust. The engine management should be keeping it very close to 1.0, optimal for the catalytic converter's correct function.

CO - carbon monoxide - should be very close to zero. One of the jobs of the cat is to oxidise CO into CO2.

HC - unburnt hydrocarbons - is unburnt fuel and oil in the exhaust. If that's too high, the cat will be killed in short order.

The 1.4 and 1.6 Prince petrol in those cars (and, yes, Minis - it's a BMW designed engine shared with Peugeot-Citroen) does have a reputation for excessive oil consumption. Very low mileage can be very bad for cars - internal wear is exacerbated by never getting up to proper temperature.

So, yes, all in all it's quite likely that the cheap fix for this car would be to swap a better engine in from a breaker's. If you can find one, because they all have the same design flaws.

Many thanks - in previous years nearly every mechanic or garage who worked on the car made a comment to me that it's a limited made BMW engine - which didn't stick around for long - your detailed analysis now makes me realise why they all raised eyebrows when pointing it out to me

Mildly_Miffed

makara said:

Many thanks - in previous years nearly every mechanic or garage who worked on the car made a comment to me that it's a limited made BMW engine - which didn't stick around for long - your detailed analysis now makes me realise why they all raised eyebrows when pointing it out to me

It's not THAT rare a lump.

The basic engine is still in production, 20 years after launch, while the 1.4 like yours was in production from 2006 until 2015.
BMW used a version in 1- and 3-series as well as Minis, and it's in LOTS of different Peugeot, Citroen, DS models.
Power outputs range from 95 to 270bhp.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_engine

makara

Mildly_Miffed said:

makara said:

Many thanks - in previous years nearly every mechanic or garage who worked on the car made a comment to me that it's a limited made BMW engine - which didn't stick around for long - your detailed analysis now makes me realise why they all raised eyebrows when pointing it out to me

It's not THAT rare a lump.

The basic engine is still in production, 20 years after launch, while the 1.4 like yours was in production from 2006 until 2015.
BMW used a version in 1- and 3-series as well as Minis, and it's in LOTS of different Peugeot, Citroen, DS models.
Power outputs range from 95 to 270bhp.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_engine

Ah I see - I believe ours is 95 bhp

facade

makara said:

Low mileage driver - bought at 40 Ks in 2016 - still only 55 Ks

((EDIT - just checked MOT history - we actually bought it when it had 45 Ks - not 40 - so we've done even less mileage over the last 8+ years we've had it))

Kwik Fit failed the MOT on emissions - LAMBDA and CO and HC failures - said smoke is white 

Told to take it to a garage with Diagnostic equipment 

Took it to our regular mechanic who didn't diagnose it - but showed me revving it produces Blue smoke against another parked car's body - and told me the smell was distinct

He said this is a known issue on 1.4 (ours) and 1.6 Peugeot 207s with a certain engine - as well as Minis

(I imagine he's referring to the BMW style engine our car has) 

Told me not worth repairing as Labour alone will be £800 to £1000 - with second hand engine parts amounting from £1200 to £1500 in total cost of repairing / and offered £200 to scrap 

Also he mentioned we've had almost a decade use of this car, which he said is good going these days

TLDR - he said it's pretty much an engine rebuild 

He said the most probable cause is something about Valve stems - although not sure what that means

Should I pay Halfords £50 for an actual diagnostic

Or is my mechanic probably right

He also said avoid replacing with a Peugeot 208 - as they are known for a similar oil burning issue

I don't want to give the car up as it's London Ulez compliant - but I'd guess its value is around £1500 to £2000 at most

Many thanks for any advice 

He may be having you on.

The lambda reading is most likely a simple sensor swap, this might fix the CO & HC reading as well, or it may need a new cheap catalytic converter as well due to the oil burning problem having clogged the old one.

This should be enough to get it through the MOT. 

It only  fails MOT for smoke if 

8.2.1.2   (f) Exhaust emits dense blue or clearly visible black smoke for a continuous period of 5 seconds at idle

(my emphasis- smoke that you need a background to see it against won't fail, dense smoke  is like a fog)

Pretty much any Prince engine will blow visible blue smoke if you let them idle for a couple of minutes then rev them hard- but they pass MOT as the smoke will clear within 5 seconds at idle.

If it is actually valve stem seals causing the oil burning, they can be changed easily (if somewhat expensively due to the labour cost) which will "cure" the problem for a short while- and may even have been done to "get rid" just before you bought it!

(If you don't do them, expect to replace the catalyst every couple of years)

More than likely he is offering scrap money for your car because he knows that he can fix it up enough to punt on to someone else for around £1000 profit.  A generic lambda sensor, a cheap catalyst and valve stem seals, and he doesn't pay anything for labour as he does it in his "free" time, his only cost being any electricity & gas he uses if he stays after closing time to do the work.

In the long term he is right though, that engine is known for this and the same thing will definitely happen again, but it might last you another 8 years/ 10,000miles !

I'd try another small garage who know this engine for a quote, they can likely quote you over the 'phone if you tell them what it has failed on and it smokes when revved, definitely not Halfords!

If they can sort it for now for sensible money you won't need to replace it for several years.

[To put it another way, if it belonged to a close family member, I'd fit a cheap eBay lambda sensor and catalyst, and shove it back in for MOT, assuming it passed I'd tell them to get rid ASAP, I wouldn't bother with valve seals- too much work.]