Being chased for a statute-barred debt by Property Debt Collection Ltd for Moreland / MW Freeholds

RAS

I think this thread is better moved to the renting, buying etc forum. You can use the report function or PM a forum admin

sourcrates

I`ll move it for you.

silvercar

The debt collection company would have bought the debt from Moorlands for pennies in the £.

I think they are chancing their arm, send. A few letters, see if anyone bites and make some cash. That’s how they operate. Moorlands are happy to sell on a debt that they have little chance of seeing any cash for, for a reduced rate to save them hassle.

IMO ( and IANAL) if Moorlands thought these debts were enforceable they would have written to mortgage lenders on the property and told them the leases were at risk of being forfeited if the money wasn’t paid. They haven’t done this, either because it is too late having relinquished the management, or because their own legal advisors have told them they are not enforceable.

silvercar

I’ve merged the 2 threads on the same topic, so the links will all come back here. Apologies if it causes confusion, but it is easier to read of all the information is one one thread.

eddddy

ripofflondon said:

Thanks for responses. 

Oh dear. I may be clutching at straws here, but does it make any difference that the charges we are talking about are NOT ground rent to the freeholders (which I have paid every year without fail) but monthly ones to the management company for things like cleaning of the common areas etc? 

Ground rent is 6 years

Service Charge is 12 years.

ripofflondon said:

And doesn't sending 2 letters a week apart like that look something like an abuse of process?
It's not like they sent the first letter then waited two months before sending the second one. 

Ultimately, it's up to a tribunal to decide whether that's "reasonable".

i.e. You would challenge elements of the bill at tribunal - and one of the elements you challenge would be £72 (or whatever) fee for the second letter.

The tribunal would decide whether the £72 should stand, or should be refunded to you.

ripofflondon said:

While on the abuse of process theme (and I wish I'd spotted this before) each letter has in fact added TWO admin charges each in the '£00s -  the detail of this is in the Statement Of Sums Instructed which I apologise for overlooking but will scan and upload to this thread as soon as I get access to the physical papers on Monday.  

Again, you can challenge any/all of the admin fees as being 'unreasonable'.

The admin fees should reflect the management co's actual costs - they shouldn't make a profit out of them.

So maybe £60+vat per hour of admin work, plus 3rd party fees etc.

eddddy

silvercar said:

The debt collection company would have bought the debt from Moorlands for pennies in the £.

I think they are chancing their arm, send. A few letters, see if anyone bites and make some cash. That’s how they operate. Moorlands are happy to sell on a debt that they have little chance of seeing any cash for, for a reduced rate to save them hassle.

Hmmm... that's very high-risk advice.

In general, all costs associated with collecting a service charge debt can be charged to the leaseholder.

So if the OP doesn't pay the bill, the Management Co might instruct solicitors and debt collectors - and add their costs (which could be thousands) to the OP's debt.

silvercar said:

IMO ( and IANAL) if Moorlands thought these debts were enforceable they would have written to mortgage lenders on the property and told them the leases were at risk of being forfeited if the money wasn’t paid. They haven’t done this, either because it is too late having relinquished the management, or because their own legal advisors have told them they are not enforceable.

Mortgage lenders would ignore letters like that - until the debt has been proven by a court or tribunal.

• Otherwise, a rogue management co / freeholder could just write a letter to the  mortgage lender saying "Your borrower owes £25k, please pay us".

• So the mortgage lender would reply "Prove that our borrower owes you £25k by getting a court (or tribunal) ruling."

And, as I say, the OP would probably be liable for thousands of pounds of costs, by the time the case reaches court.

silvercar

eddddy said:

silvercar said:

The debt collection company would have bought the debt from Moorlands for pennies in the £.

I think they are chancing their arm, send. A few letters, see if anyone bites and make some cash. That’s how they operate. Moorlands are happy to sell on a debt that they have little chance of seeing any cash for, for a reduced rate to save them hassle.

Hmmm... that's very high-risk advice.

In general, all costs associated with collecting a service charge debt can be charged to the leaseholder.

So if the OP doesn't pay the bill, the Management Co might instruct solicitors and debt collectors - and add their costs (which could be thousands) to the OP's debt.

silvercar said:

IMO ( and IANAL) if Moorlands thought these debts were enforceable they would have written to mortgage lenders on the property and told them the leases were at risk of being forfeited if the money wasn’t paid. They haven’t done this, either because it is too late having relinquished the management, or because their own legal advisors have told them they are not enforceable.

Mortgage lenders would ignore letters like that - until the debt has been proven by a court or tribunal.

• Otherwise, a rogue management co / freeholder could just write a letter to the  mortgage lender saying "Your borrower owes £25k, please pay us".

• So the mortgage lender would reply "Prove that our borrower owes you £25k by getting a court (or tribunal) ruling."

And, as I say, the OP would probably be liable for thousands of pounds of costs, by the time the case reaches court.

I would have thought the lender would have then written to the borrower outlining the issue.

The other option, not without its risks, is to write to the management company and ask if there is anything outstanding with them. If they say there is something and they’ve instructed the collection agency you know it could be a valid claim. If they say they’ve sold the debt and now are not interested, you know the picture.

ripofflondon

Hi all
Thanks for flurry of further responses.  As promised here are some other pages that I maybe should have posted up before. 

This is what came with the 19 Feb letter.  Is all this paperwork requiring someone to bare their financial soul normal?  In particular see how the items on the 'Statement Of Sums Instructed' aren't even in chronological order, plus how they've added Interest and a 'PDC Instruction Fee' in addition to the admin fee on the pages I posted originally.  
And is it normal for them not to even specify whether I'm supposed to defend it in the County Court or the Land Tribunal?  

ripofflondon

This is what came with the 27 Feb letter (the other papers were the same as the 19 Feb one).  See how the alleged debt has gone up from £1984.18 on 19 Feb to £2,058.61 on 27 Feb because of an extra £72 'PDC Trace Fee'!! 

ripofflondon

silvercar said:

The other option, not without its risks, is to write to the management company and ask if there is anything outstanding with them. If they say there is something and they’ve instructed the collection agency you know it could be a valid claim. If they say they’ve sold the debt and now are not interested, you know the picture.

Hi Silvercar - in response to this point of yours see the latest 'Application For Payment' dated 23 Feb - almost looks like the 2 cos aren't talking to each other, doesn't it?  

In case not already pointed out:  I can confirm that the RTM company took effect on 7 June 2016 and that I had ended up in about 1 year's worth of service charge arrears, having been emailing Moreland repeatedly for clarification of how they were arrived at and what work had been taking place (the fire alarms were out of action for months if not a whole year prior to June 2016) but had been met with a deafening silence.