Being chased for a statute-barred debt by Property Debt Collection Ltd for Moreland / MW Freeholds

eddddy

ripofflondon said:

Am wondering about paying the amount shown on the ''Application for Payment' to Moreland direct - if I did that (and stated it was under dispute) would that extinguish the right of PDC to come after me? 

If the Administration Charges on PDC's bill are legitimate - it would be illogical not to pay them.

As I've been saying, you should pay now and then challenge them later.

If you leave, say, £900 unpaid - you can still be taken to court. And the legal costs would be the same for £900 unpaid as for £2000 unpaid.

There's probably no point in just paying part of the charges.

ripofflondon

Right, just come off the phone with Thompsons Solicitors - as part of my UNISON membership I get a free 30 minute legal advice call.  

So - this is what they said.
- The 12 year time limit because it's a service charge arising from a lease is correct
- The admin fees are enforceable if the original debt is enforceable and this would need to be decided by a court / tribunal / ombudsman.
- I should contact the Trading Standards dept of the local council for Moreland's area and complain that I am being harassed for a debt that's in dispute - the dispute should be resolved by a court / tribunal / ombudsman before debt collectors being called in.
- Unreasonable for Moreland to keep adding these £75 admin charges without taking legal action (something I maybe should have mentioned earlier but didn't is that every monthly 'Application For Payment' has a different number of lines on it for these £75 admin charges - sometimes the total amount they say is due is as little as £900-odd, others it's as high as £1100 and various figures in between)
- I should book in my appointment with the LAS (do you have any experience of whether they are likely to be quicker / more forthcoming if I click on the 'seek written advice' option?)
- I should do likewise with the Property Ombudsman. 
- With PDC I should contact them and say 'I have today had legal advice and have been advised to contact the Property Ombudsman and the LAS and their earliest appointment is not till 10 April' - this would make PDC look unreasonable if they start instructing solicitors / any debt collection proceedings before 10 April.  

Any thoughts?  I suspect it will be Eddddy who responds but anyone else also welcome to weigh in!  

ripofflondon

Hi all - me again.

Maybe I should start a different thread re this but anyway - on 17/11/2025 a County Court claim was lodged against me by PDC. The service charge itself is around £500 but with various 'legal costs' the amount claimed is > £4000.  

I lodged an Acknowledgement Of Service via the MoneyClaimOnline site on 01/12/2025 stating that I intend to defend the claim.  The AOS states 'If you file an acknowledgment of service but do not file a defence within 28 days of the date of service of the claim form.....judgment may be entered against you'  

Couple of points I would like clarification on please:  

1) I have been trying to speak to my various insurance companies to see if I have legal expenses cover so as to place it in the hands of their solicitors but haven't yet had a chance to speak to all of them.  Can I get more time from the MoneyClaimOnline ppl to prepare a defence and how to ask for it? 

2) I have yesterday sent MW Freeholds a cheque for the annual ground rent (as I have always done; this is not disputed).  What I have also included in the same envelope is a cheque to Moreland for £500, stating on the back that it is 'In full and final settlement of the service charge for (no. of flat) at (name of address)'.  I have needless to say got a scanned copy of this and a Proof Of Posting.  What happens if they bank this cheque?  

3) The claim is against me AND my mother, who I put on the Land Registry title for the flat when I bought it, but only as a 'sleeping partner' for capital gains reasons if/when I come to sell the place - she has absolutely no involvement in any of this, or the day-to-day running of the flat. How to ensure this doesn't affect/involve her?

4)  The claim was lodged at the Civil National Business Centre in Northampton but it is not clear which physical court the claim is due to be heard in - I assume the one local to PDC who live in Hertford.  Any thoughts on whether I should apply to transfer the case to my own local County Court (Brentford) or Truro (the one local to the property in Penzance and also where my mother lives)?  

Any thoughts anyone has gratefully received.

Thanks

Mark

eddddy

ripofflondon said:

1) I have been trying to speak to my various insurance companies to see if I have legal expenses cover so as to place it in the hands of their solicitors but haven't yet had a chance to speak to all of them.  

I guess it's worth remembering that an insurance company will only get involved if you have a reasonable chance of success.

Do you have compelling reasons why you don't owe the £4k?

ripofflondon said:

2) The County Court claim lists MW Freeholds as the claimants.  MW Freeholds live at the same physical address as Moreland Estate Management and ARE the owners of the freehold who I have always paid the yearly ground rent to but are a different company (05908812) as opposed to Moreland (07486339).  Yet the monthly 'Applications For Payment' for this allegedly-outstanding service charge have always come from Moreland (and the 'how to pay' advice refers to the service charge being payable to Moreland).  Is this relevant ie am I being sued by the wrong entity?  

You probably owe the money to whoever the lease says you have to pay service charges to...

• If it's a 2 party lease - you probably owe the money to the freeholder

• If it's a 3 party lease - you probably owe the money to the management company

But for example, if service charges are payable to the freeholder - they might have appointed an agent (i.e. another company) to send out service charge demands, and to accept service charge payments on their behalf.

ripofflondon said:

3) The claim is against me AND my mother, who I put on the Land Registry title for the flat when I bought it, but only as a 'sleeping partner' for capital gains reasons if/when I come to sell the place - she has absolutely no involvement in any of this, or the day-to-day running of the flat. How to ensure this doesn't affect/involve her?

As I understand it, joint leaseholders have joint and several liability to pay the service charges required by the lease. So the freeholder / management co can choose to persue you or your mother or both of you. (But you should check that.)



By letting this go to court, you're probably risking even more legal costs being added to the £4k bill. It would be lower risk to pay the £4k, go to tribunal, and if you win - you would get some or all of the £4k back.

ripofflondon

eddddy said:

Do you have compelling reasons why you don't owe the £4k?

Because most of it is their made-up legal costs rather than any actual services provided.  As for the original £500 ran up by the point of us exercising the RTM - I (and various of the other leaseholders) repeatedly asked Moreland for proof of how these were made up and never received it.  That was in my OP but it WAS a long time ago! 

FYI, years ago Moreland once tried suing one of us in the County Court for unpaid management fees and, tellingly, the action got struck out when the Court asked Moreland to show how these fees were calculated and they did not do so.

eddddy said:
You probably owe the money to whoever the lease says you have to pay service charges to...

I did actually amend the post to delete this para as I read the Particulars again and realised it DOES refer to MW Freeholds employing Moreland as their agent - so this was a red herring and I think you may have been looking at the unrefreshed version.  Apols.  

eddddy said:

As I understand it, joint leaseholders have joint and several liability to pay the service charges required by the lease. So the freeholder / management co can choose to persue you or your mother or both of you. (But you should check that.)

Noted - thanks

eddddy said:

By letting this go to court, you're probably risking even more legal costs being added to the £4k bill. It would be lower risk to pay the £4k, go to tribunal, and if you win - you would get some or all of the £4k back.

Noted.  I have in fact paid £500 as per my AMENDED point 2 above.

Court or Tribunal?  

After I did this post today I called the Civil National Business Centre and to my surprise they were not unhelpful.  They said I should a) ask PDC for their agreement to give me more time and/or b) file a skeleton defence using form N9B by the deadline (4PM on 20 Dec) so as to show compliance.  I wasted 1 1/2 hours trying unsuccessfully to get through to PDC on the phone (TG I was able to do other things while being kept on hold) so that's A out of the window.  

As for B - the CNBC said my skeleton defence should contain the outline of my defence and evidence that I will be relying on while making clear the amended version (drafted either by me or the solicitors) is to follow

NB - make sure to click on 'show previous quotes!' 

ChirpyChicken

Without reading the thread
Statute barred is statue barred
Never listen to what they say at the CNBC. You can not simply file a skeleton defence and then file a fuller one.
What you can do is make an application for an amended defence (fee 108) using N244 in the normal way

eddddy

ripofflondon said:

Because most of it is their made-up legal costs rather than any actual services provided. 

Why do you believe that the legal costs are "made-up"?

If the court decides that the legal costs are genuine (and not "made-up"), hopefully you realise that you'll have to pay them.

ripofflondon said:

 As for the original £500 ran up by the point of us exercising the RTM - I (and various of the other leaseholders) repeatedly asked Moreland for proof of how these were made up and never received it.  That was in my OP but it WAS a long time ago! 

OK - so your defence is that you asked for a breakdown of the bill, and they didn't provide one.

ripofflondon said:

FYI, years ago Moreland once tried suing one of us in the County Court for unpaid management fees and, tellingly, the action got struck out when the Court asked Moreland to show how these fees were calculated and they did not do so.

So having lost once, maybe they've learnt from their mistake and will have their paperwork ready this time.

ripofflondon said:

Court or Tribunal? 

First Tier Tribunal (Property Chamber)

(If the case relies specifically on leasehold law, I believe if may get transferred to the First Tier Tribunal anyway - because County Courts don't have specialist leasehold law expertise.) 



I guess it's easy to say this with hindsight, but if you had paid the original £500 under protest and then challenged it at a tribunal - you might or might not have won the case and got your £500 back...

...but either way, you wouldn't be at risk of having to pay £3.5k in legal fees.

EssexHebridean

ChirpyChicken said:

Without reading the thread
Statute barred is statue barred
Never listen to what they say at the CNBC. You can not simply file a skeleton defence and then file a fuller one.
What you can do is make an application for an amended defence (fee 108) using N244 in the normal way

Statute barred is indeed statute barred - but the debt in question here is NOT statute barred. This is why reading the thread is always a good idea. 

OP - what was the outcome of the call with the LAS? Have you acted on their advice, and things have escalated regardless? 

ripofflondon

All - thanks for responses.  

 ChirpyChicken said: 

Without reading the thread 
Statute barred is statue barred
Never listen to what they say at the CNBC. You can not simply file a skeleton defence and then file a fuller one.
What you can do is make an application for an amended defence (fee 108) using N244 in the normal way

Maybe I should have amended the title of this thread as it was established some time ago that this debt is NOT statue barred - it has a 12 year time limit because it's a service charge arising from a lease.

I am up against it now with the 4PM deadline so will have to file my defence and revisit one way or another in the new year.  

  eddddy said:

Why do you believe that the legal costs are "made-up"?

This is me speaking as a lay person but they appear to be rather large amounts for pieces of work that likely haven't taken them that long to do or required much in the way of specialist expertise.  Legalised extortion by debt collectors. 

eddddy said:

First Tier Tribunal (Property Chamber)

(If the case relies specifically on leasehold law, I believe if may get transferred to the First Tier Tribunal anyway - because County Courts don't have specialist leasehold law expertise.) 

Is it advisable to get the matter transferred to the FTT and, if so, is there anything I have to do to make this happen?

eddddy said:

I guess it's easy to say this with hindsight, but if you had paid the original £500 under protest and then challenged it at a tribunal - you might or might not have won the case and got your £500 back...

We don't yet know what they will do with the £500 cheque 'in full and final settlement' but, if they DO bank it, what are the ramifications of this, and is there any difference between that and paying under protest?   

And if they don't bank the cheque, is it advisable for me to make a further payment of £500 (actually £717.18 - see below) and state that I am paying under protest?  

In actual fact, the service charge arrears themselves relating to the period between when MW Freeholds bought the freehold and when we the leaseholders exercised our RTM, (without interest / admin charges) amount to £717.18 and, to the penny, this is one of the amounts claimed by PDC.  As said above, I didn't pay these in 2015 or subsequently because I (and the other leaseholders) was not happy about how the service charge almost doubled overnight while the cleaning etc of the common parts ceased when MW Freeholds bought the freehold and because Moreland never replied to my/our repeated requests for a breakdown of how these charges were calculated.  But, for the sake of getting this matter off my back I am prepared to reluctantly pay the £717.18 and have indicated thus in my N9A and B.  

It is my mistake that I sent a cheque for £500 when it should have been £717.18 - was in a hurry.  Does this make a difference and, if so, how to pay the extra £217.18? 

EssexHebridean said:

OP - what was the outcome of the call with the LAS? Have you acted on their advice, and things have escalated regardless? 

On 14 April I spoke to the LAS. The conversation was limited to 15 mins and I had difficulty understanding the person. However I (think I) gleaned the following:
- Look in lease for whether it's got provision for levy of interest / admin charges / costs incidental to chasing unpaid admin fees (I did and it hasn't got any (!))
- S158 of the Commonhold & Leasehold Reform Act 2002 provides that a charge can be made but has to be reasonable (with no definition of reasonable)
- That I should pay stating that it's under protest and then challenge them at the 1st Tier Property Tribunal for a definition of reasonable.  
- Some leases are drafted as a contract and consequently the limitation period is 6 years; if drafted as a Deed it becomes 12 years. If it says 'agreement' not 'deed' then it's a contract (my lease calls itself a lease but says on the back page 'signed as a deed')


Anyone have any further thoughts?