Would I be mad to buy a second hand PHEV?

saker75

I’m looking at a 2017 PHEV - the car has great reviews but I don’t know if it’s stupid buying an electric based car that old. Any thoughts?

Bigwheels1111

Make and model would help, price etc.
PHEV why.
Most of the old PHEV would discharge the battery and the you were carrying around a dead weight.
Newer ones default to being a hybrid so are far better.

Veteransaver

What model? 
Often the batteries are pretty knackered at that age, and they were pretty small anyway. So your electric only range would be fairly small. Like 5 or 10 miles, so imo there is probably very little point in them in real world

saker75

Mini Countryman 1.5 2017.
How would I know the state of the battery? 

I’d get a pre purchase AA report.

facade

I don't really see the point, as they combine the worst of both worlds: poor electric range, an engine that has to be serviced and run regularly, plus the rubbish ethanol adulterated fuel we get nowadays will go off, and they have even more complexity than either a pure EV or a ICE.

If your usage case justifies one- regular long motorway trips to use the petrol, and a lot of relatively short city driving at both ends to use the electric then maybe, as long as you don't touch a RangeRover hybrid with someone else's bargepole! (See Highpeak Autos on Youtube)

But for most people, either an economical diesel for regular motorway burning or a full electric for mainly short trips (charged at home, or at work as a free perk) with the rare long trip accommodated by ferociously expensive fast charging would be more suitable.

In theory running a car like a Gator class submarine, where traction is fully electric, and you run the ICE at max efficiency at steady cruise (charge at home not from the engine, it is miles cheaper!) and creep along at slow/intermittent speeds on the battery seems attractive, but the reality is that most owners don't use the ICE for weeks at a time.

Full electric are enjoying rock bottom second hand prices at the moment, you can get an awful lot of nearly new car for £10-£15K

saker75

I’ve had big diesels for years but my driving and journeys have changed. Most are less than a couple of miles, some regular 5-10 miles and then occasional long motorways journeys. I was looking for petrol but then saw this PHEV and thought it would be great for the very local journeys that I do. 

shinytop

saker75 said:

I’ve had big diesels for years but my driving and journeys have changed. Most are less than a couple of miles, some regular 5-10 miles and then occasional long motorways journeys. I was looking for petrol but then saw this PHEV and thought it would be great for the very local journeys that I do. 

I'm thinking of getting one too.  I think PHEVs are the best of both worlds. Like you, most of my journeys are short/city trips.  I'll get cheap electric travel and emit no tailpipe emissions.  When I want to do my twice a month long trips the ICE does the job. 

A lot of people comment about lugging around an ICE engine unnecessarily but don't mention lugging around 200 miles of unused battery capacity most of the time in an EV.   And a PHEV isn't going to lose battery range over time any more than an EV is it? 

A diesel may not be a good choice for our sort of driving.

Bigphil1474

Agree with above. There's a place for PHEV's in the market. The question with an 8 year old car is what state is the battery in. The 'at new' range was only about 18-20 miles (26 officially), so I'd be focussing on that. 

Veteransaver

shinytop said:

saker75 said:

I’ve had big diesels for years but my driving and journeys have changed. Most are less than a couple of miles, some regular 5-10 miles and then occasional long motorways journeys. I was looking for petrol but then saw this PHEV and thought it would be great for the very local journeys that I do. 

I'm thinking of getting one too.  I think PHEVs are the best of both worlds. Like you, most of my journeys are short/city trips.  I'll get cheap electric travel and emit no tailpipe emissions.  When I want to do my twice a month long trips the ICE does the job. 

A lot of people comment about lugging around an ICE engine unnecessarily but don't mention lugging around 200 miles of unused battery capacity most of the time in an EV.   And a PHEV isn't going to lose battery range over time any more than an EV is it? 

A diesel may not be a good choice for our sort of driving.

They are considered worst of both worlds because under EV only they are quite underpowered. And once the battery is exhausted the fuel consumption is very poor, you might as well just get a more efficient pure diesel.
Most full EVs will comfortably do 200 miles+ now at any time of the year.
Yes you can make a use case for one of you have no more than about a 20mile commute each day and can do it on electric. But you won't really be saving much in running costs, and you'll be charging it in every day

Bigphil1474

Think you're a few years behind reality now on PHEV technology. Some people think they are worst of both worlds, doesn't make them right. 

Here's an example plugged at random (I don't own a Toyota):-

The Toyota Rav 4 PHEV has an official electric range of up to 46 miles, in real life tests around 40 miles. The mpg (for comparison basis only according to the blurb) is 282.4 mpg. (Two Hundred and eighty two). The petrol version did about 50mpg. It charges up to 100% with a 7kwh charger in around 3 hours. If you charge overnight on a decent home rate that's about 18-21p or 0.4-0.5p per mile ish. The petrol would be closer to 13p per mile. An all electric car will probably cost less to run if you've got cheap overnight charging at home, but a PHEV can run without electric and there's no range anxiety that a lot of people seem to worry about.

A daily commute of 10 miles each way would cost me about £13 a week in petrol. Realistically you could run a PHEV on electric all week for a relatively short commute each day (e.g. 10 miles each way), and drive off to the coast and back on the weekend, all in costing you a few litres of petrol and 30 - 40p of electricity, without ever needing to charge it up at some motorway services that costs 20x the going rate for leccy . Sounds pretty good. ICE, BEV, and PHEV all have their advantages and disadvantages, horses for courses.

MattMattMattUK

Bigphil1474 said:

Think you're a few years behind reality now on PHEV technology. Some people think they are worst of both worlds, doesn't make them right. 

They can be the worst of both worlds, they largely exist to manage anxiety whilst also benefitting for lower tax rates for BIK.

Bigphil1474 said:

The Toyota Rav 4 PHEV has an official electric range of up to 46 miles, in real life tests around 40 miles. The mpg (for comparison basis only according to the blurb) is 282.4 mpg. (Two Hundred and eighty two). The petrol version did about 50mpg. It charges up to 100% with a 7kwh charger in around 3 hours. If you charge overnight on a decent home rate that's about 18-21p or 0.4-0.5p per mile ish. The petrol would be closer to 13p per mile. An all electric car will probably cost less to run if you've got cheap overnight charging at home, but a PHEV can run without electric and there's no range anxiety that a lot of people seem to worry about.

A good EV would cost about 1.8p per mile, a small petrol is more like 15p per mile, a comparable petrol is going to be closer to 20p per mile, you are out by a factor of ten on the Rav4, it is going to be 3-5p per mile, not 0.4-0.5p per mile, that would make it the most efficient EV by a huge margin. An EV generally costs about £200 a year for service, PHEV can easily end up being £1k+ on a major service and £500+ on a minor. Range anxiety can be gotten over once people start being rational.

Bigphil1474 said:

A daily commute of 10 miles each way would cost me about £13 a week in petrol. Realistically you could run a PHEV on electric all week for a relatively short commute each day (e.g. 10 miles each way), and drive off to the coast and back on the weekend, all in costing you a few litres of petrol and 30 - 40p of electricity, without ever needing to charge it up at some motorway services that costs 20x the going rate for leccy . Sounds pretty good. ICE, BEV, and PHEV all have their advantages and disadvantages, horses for courses.

Or it could cost you £1.80 per week in an EV, whilst also saving £19 per week on servicing. 

If charging at a services the rates seem to vary from 40-75p per kWh depending on vendor and location, so the top end of that is ten times the average EV rate or three times the SVT rate, with the bottom end being less than twice the SVT rate and five times the EV rate. The highest end of that is going to bring the cost to around 18-19p per mile, which is in line with a petrol car using normal rate petrol, or about a third cheaper than a car using motorway services petrol. 

ICE - Outdated technology apart from certain niches, should be phased out for personal vehicles.
PHEV - Created as a marketing exercise and to benefit from tax legislation, should be phased out.
BEV - The present and future of road transport.
Hydrogen (EV or combustion) - Dead on arrival for personal vehicles due to huge inefficiencies.