Automatic v Manual?

Inforapennyinforapound

NBLondon said:

I've always owned manuals - but driven autos if borrowed or hire cars in the US.  For many years - I sort of preferred the idea that I was in control.  My current manual Focus has an indicator telling when to change up (for economy) but I learned to ignore that as reading the road ahead sometimes suggested it would only be for 3 or 4 seconds.

However, I now have an automatic on order.  Not so much by choice but because the car I wanted has no manual option (and there were far fewer manual choices than when I last changed).  So reading all this is helpful in preparing to undo almost 40 years of habits...

Exactly my take on it. I need to unlearn 50 years of manual and I likened the Auto to driving a dodgem at the fairground when a child.

It is nice but it also stops me concentrating on gear selection giving my wife more time to talk to me,or rather,tell me what needs doing🤣

Iceweasel

Inforapennyinforapound said:

NBLondon said:

I've always owned manuals - but driven autos if borrowed or hire cars in the US.  For many years - I sort of preferred the idea that I was in control.  My current manual Focus has an indicator telling when to change up (for economy) but I learned to ignore that as reading the road ahead sometimes suggested it would only be for 3 or 4 seconds.

However, I now have an automatic on order.  Not so much by choice but because the car I wanted has no manual option (and there were far fewer manual choices than when I last changed).  So reading all this is helpful in preparing to undo almost 40 years of habits...

Exactly my take on it. I need to unlearn 50 years of manual and I likened the Auto to driving a dodgem at the fairground when a child.

It is nice but it also stops me concentrating on gear selection giving my wife more time to talk to me,or rather,tell me what needs doing🤣

Ha ha, that's exactly my thoughts after trying an EV for a day.

Goudy

Autos are now far better than they have ever been.

Most manufacturers have stopped selling automated manuals, they were pretty rank.

DCT's are mainly wet clutches now so tend to drive better and last longer than the old dry clutch versions.

CVT's are catching up.
The latest Toyota Hybrids don't utilise the CVT for all it's gearing like it used to.
Lower speed gearing is direct electric drive, it's only when you get up to speed does the drive and gearing get taken over by the CVT.
This reduces the common complaint of them feeling disjointed, reduces some inefficacies of power loss through the gearbox and the gearbox it's self is much smaller and lighter

The torque convertors that are still sold are now far better but are only really fitted to one or two big, top end motors.
DCT's have really taken over, they are now more robust and designed to handle more and more torque from engines.

I don't mind driving an EV, yes they are very simple to drive.
It takes me a while to get used to less coasting on the over run. If I take my foot off the pedal to roll up to a junction, it slows/stops much sooner than my car and I have to get back on the power to make it all the way.
I get used to it until I jump back into my car!

PunkRoquefort

I am still loving my manual.

Am I really in the big minority?

Goudy

PunkRoquefort said:

I am still loving my manual.

Am I really in the big minority?

No, manuals still sell well but there are now more cars on the market that are automatic or at least two pedal only, so they are becoming widespread as that's the only option for those models.

They are becoming less of a choice. Less people are purposely going out to buy an auto, they are going out to buy a certain car that just happens to be two pedal only.

You can't buy a manual Toyota Yaris anymore, they are all hybrid E-CVT but a few years ago you could buy a manual, plus if you want an EV, it will almost certainly come with only two pedals.

Also, not long ago auto was a expensive option, not only on the sale price but economy and emission wise.
They tended to use a lot more fuel and produce more emissions, but technology has got better and production costs have come down.

This is partly due to efficiency and partly due demand and partly due to economies of scale.
The DCT gearbox in my Renault has 7 speeds and therefore has the ability to keep the engine working efficiently for longer.
I regularly see 58 to 60 mpg from a non hybrid petrol automatic Clio at motorway speeds and have had over 500 miles from around 40ish litres of fuel.

The gearbox it's self saps the same sort of power as a manual from the engine to turn it and the electronic power consumption is tiny.

It's also shared with Mini, BMW, Nissan, Mercedes and Ford, so economy of scale is high.
And again when I bought it, it was the only option of that model/engine/trim combination, a manual wasn't an option.

Johnmcl7

PunkRoquefort said:

I am still loving my manual.

Am I really in the big minority?

In terms of new car sales, manual cars are certainly in the minority now.  I find a lot of people aren't that bothered and even though I prefer a manual, my next car will be auto because none of the models I want (including the direct replacement for my current manual car) have a manual option.

WellKnownSid

Goudy said:

Most manufacturers have stopped selling automated manuals, they were pretty rank.

DCT's are mainly wet clutches now so tend to drive better and last longer than the old dry clutch versions.

Renault went one further with the e-tech hybrid system - removing the clutch entirely and replacing it with software.  My 1.6 pulls away quicker and smoother than my three litre I6 off the lights - and feels just like an old-school TC automatic.

Goudy

WellKnownSid said:

Goudy said:

Most manufacturers have stopped selling automated manuals, they were pretty rank.

DCT's are mainly wet clutches now so tend to drive better and last longer than the old dry clutch versions.

Renault went one further with the e-tech hybrid system - removing the clutch entirely and replacing it with software.  My 1.6 pulls away quicker and smoother than my three litre I6 off the lights - and feels just like an old-school TC automatic.

Yes, their "Dog" gearbox is quite clever.
Apparently they used Lego to design it. (other building block toys are available)

You are right, no clutches.
The engine is connected directly on the the input shaft and software and electric motors engage and disengage the selector forks that move the gears on the shafts to mate or break apart.
The gears are meshed together with "dogs" rather than syncros.

When you want no drive, it just moves the gears into a neutral position but the input shaft still spins (if the engine is running) just the gears on the shaft aren't engaged together.
There's a small reduction in torque as the gears engage and disengage on the shafts, but I read it's only around 150 milliseconds, just enough to mate and break them without a lot of losses.

So there's no need for a clutch, it just reduces torque between the gears slightly to engage/disengage automatically and when it comes to a stop, slides it's self gears into a neutral position.

The main electric motor input into the gearbox also has two speeds, so there are effectively lots and lots of different combinations of drive/gears, plus it'll always use the electric motor to pull away/reverse, so no need for a clutch to take up drive from a standstill.

Also attached to the gearbox is a small alternator/generator to recoup power back into the traction battery.

I've driven a few Etech Clio's as my dealer has been tempting me and they are pretty seamless.
You can sense, rather than feel something is going around the mid point in acceleration, but there's so much gear and drive mode combinations, it's hard to tell if it's a gear change or a surge/drop off of electric torque.

I also got some insane mpg figures in city traffic.

rollingmoon

At my price point I don't get to choose trim levels, colours, transmission types etc. When I started driving about 40 years ago, automatics were mostly horrible things and prone to (expensive) failure to boot so I avoided them like the plague. Some years ago, an automatic Vito turned up at the right price and although other aspects of the van were utterly hateful - the crappy electronics mostly - it drove very well. In fact, if it hadn't been for that Mercedes, I'd have likely turned my nose up at the automatic Focus I'm currently driving. And that would have been a shame, because as an ex-giffer, fully serviced sub-£1000 car, it's served well these past few years and, I suspect, has at least another three in it. 

Basically, as long as the car does it's job acceptably I really don't care what the transmission is. Having driven an automatic Audi A1 as a courtesy car, however, I would definitely avoid one of those like the plague in future. Dangerously slow to pull away in anything other than 'Sport' mode, the use of which reduced mpg to the high twenties.

Silvertabby

Picking up our new car (VW T Cross) later today.  Petrol, manual gearbox and proper hand brake.

We normally keep our cars for 5 years, but may keep this one longer - by which time our only option may be an EV go-kart.  

Our car seller chappie said that he was having a really busy week, with he alone finalising the sales of 9 new cars.  Out of curiosity, I asked him how many of those were EV.  Just 1 - and that was sold as a company car to a chap who had been told he could only have an EV