Automatic v Manual?

Grumpy_chap

Iceweasel said:

A Honda Jazz CVT has 7 gears which one can 'mess with' or not according to the driver's wishes.

A CVT, by definition, does not have 7 gears or any number of fixed gear ratios.  The whole idea is continuously varying ratios for maximum efficiency at all times.
So, the "7 gears" are really 7 pre-set ratios that can be selected to over-ride the automatic variable ratios.
In the real world, this is only useful for either snow / loose ground conditions or steep hill descent.  The driver can flip the paddles if they wish but I suspect there are also standard buttons that achieve exactly the same.
In fact, for a car like the Honda Jazz with CVT transmission to have the "paddle-shift" gear change is an absolute nonsense but it does allow immature drivers to make the engine scream and pretend they are a racing driver

kipperman

I changed to an automatic (DSG) but also got the adaptive cruise control as well. Fantastic combination - slows down in traffic, stops, restarts when the traffic moves off ( and steers itself up to 30mph in a traffic jam). I know there will be luddites who decry the technology, but for me it is a total game changer - a system which doesn't get tired, distracted, confused by headlights, fazed by rain. 

Would not go back. And I'm an older fart.

Iceweasel

Grumpy_chap said:

Iceweasel said:

A Honda Jazz CVT has 7 gears which one can 'mess with' or not according to the driver's wishes.

A CVT, by definition, does not have 7 gears or any number of fixed gear ratios.  The whole idea is continuously varying ratios for maximum efficiency at all times.
So, the "7 gears" are really 7 pre-set ratios that can be selected to over-ride the automatic variable ratios.
In the real world, this is only useful for either snow / loose ground conditions or steep hill descent.  The driver can flip the paddles if they wish but I suspect there are also standard buttons that achieve exactly the same.
In fact, for a car like the Honda Jazz with CVT transmission to have the "paddle-shift" gear change is an absolute nonsense but it does allow immature drivers to make the engine scream and pretend they are a racing driver

Very informative  thanks for that insight.

Inforapennyinforapound

Iceweasel said:

Inforapennyinforapound said:

Iceweasel said:

facade said:

Iceweasel said:

Grumpy_chap said:

badmemory said:

Thanks for the info everyone.  The next question I need to ask myself is if at my age it is a good idea to change the kind of car I am driving.  I have been driving manual for 60 years now & don't need to think about what my hands & feet are doing.  Guess I will need to stick with manual for now.  But give me a year & I could well be ready for the next new challenge.

Driving an auto is less to do than driving a manual so not really a challenge.

You are so very wrong if you really think that.

However, if you meant that as a joke,  then ha ha very funny, I like it.

I've been driving autos (and manuals) for over 40 years, and there is less to do in an auto- kind of the point of having one!

I just select D and never mess with the gears again until I stop, or have to change direction.

The only time I've ever messed with the gears when going forwards was in my old RangeRover, when I put it in 1 to go down a slope that I wouldn't have tried to walk down myself!

However, driving with two feet has stored dozens of fault codes in my Citroen, as Citroen think it is impossible to press the brake with the accelerator still pressed, so there has to be a fault with the switches in the pedals!

I'm not going to unlearn over 40 years of driving with two feet at my age........

It's because you don't, in your words "mess with the gears" that there is less for you to do.

I must agree that if one selects D and do nothing else then you have chosen to have far less to do - and if that is how you want an auto to perform then that's great.

Some of us are far more involved in the driving experience than others and make use of the considerable extra control and choice of gears that a modern auto brings.

That is why most performance cars no longer offer a manual - because the driver can choose to be much more involved than just move a gear lever and operate the clutch.

In heavy 'stop-go' traffic I leave the auto-box to do it's own thing, but for the rest of the time it is me, the driver, who makes the decisions.

Sorry Iceweasel I don’t understand your reply. I have just bought my first auto after 50 yrs . All I do is put it in D and away I go. How do I become more involved? Unless I’m reversing ? My ‘modern’ auto doesn’t offer changingBut gear etc so how do you ‘as the driver make decisions’?

I appreciate there will be an answer ro my question but confused how I can be more involved. My car is a Honda fwiw

Page 366 / 367 in the Honda Jazz Hybrid manual explains how to make selections.

But as far as I can see some models don't have  the drive mode option.

A Honda Jazz CVT has 7 gears which one can 'mess with' or not according to the driver's wishes.

Must be on higher spec models of the Jazz then. Page 366/7 is about fuses

Grumpy_chap

Inforapennyinforapound said:

Must be on higher spec models of the Jazz then. Page 366/7 is about fuses

Yes, higher spec models of the Honda Jazz auto (CVT) do have paddle-shift gear levers behind the steering wheel.  It might make you feel you are driving a Ferrari.  It is actually just marketing nonsense.
I know all this because my Mum's Jazz is equipped with all that jazz.
Even more why it is nonsense - target market for the Jazz is not the driver that will be interested at all in any of that.

Goudy

Auto's for years had a way to lock the car in lower gears.
Along with PRND, they also had the options of 3,2 and 1.
So the selectors options looked like PRND321.
Selecting any of these numbers limited the gearbox to the max gear it could change up to.
Automatic Shift Knob Of Classic Bmw E30 Car Stock Photo - Download Image Now - 1980-1989, Automatic, BMW - iStock

This helped with snow and ice, towing etc and also going down steep hills.
You could just lock the gearbox so it didn't change all the way up and it increased engine braking.


Many modern autos, either Dual Clutch or CVT have the ability to override the gear ratios it would normally select if it was left to it's own devices.

Some DCT's like VAGs DSG usually come with manual shift option as part of the actually shifter., you just slip it across to the +/- setting and select a lower gear by pushing the lever towards -.
DSG CARBON GEAR SELECTOR FOR VW/SEAT | Demonized

Other use paddles behind the steering wheel, just a quick flick on the minus lever will drop down a gear even though the gearbox if set in D.


CVT's have a "Brake Mode".
It's a "B" on the shifter like in all the Toyota Hybrid models or "L" for low on others.
It puts drag on the gearbox to help engine braking (though some think it's used to increase regen braking).
CVT vs automatic transmission: What’s the difference? | DC News Now

EV's tend to use one of two ways (or both) to overcome this lower gear ratio problem.
First some have the facility to select a one pedal drive mode (or as near as they can to a one pedal drive).
This introduces lots of drag on the drive train when you lift your foot off the accelerator without touching the brakes.

Another common things with most really modern autos, including some EV's is that they sense a decent.
There's a sensor in the car that monitors the angle of the car.
When it detects the car pointing down a steep hill it'll automatically limit the highest gear it selects to try and match the decent.
It's just another version of what is commonly called a hill decent system.

Mine does this even though it has paddles. If I crest a really steep hill just as I'm thinking of flicking the minus paddle it'll select a lower gear and bumble down with the engine doing all if not most of the braking.

 

Iceweasel

Goudy said:

Auto's for years had a way to lock the car in lower gears.
Along with PRND, they also had the options of 3,2 and 1.
So the selectors options looked like PRND321.
Selecting any of these numbers limited the gearbox to the max gear it could change up to.
Automatic Shift Knob Of Classic Bmw E30 Car Stock Photo - Download Image Now - 1980-1989, Automatic, BMW - iStock

This helped with snow and ice, towing etc and also going down steep hills.
You could just lock the gearbox so it didn't change all the way up and it increased engine braking.


Many modern autos, either Dual Clutch or CVT have the ability to override the gear ratios it would normally select if it was left to it's own devices.

Some DCT's like VAGs DSG usually come with manual shift option as part of the actually shifter., you just slip it across to the +/- setting and select a lower gear by pushing the lever towards -.
DSG CARBON GEAR SELECTOR FOR VW/SEAT | Demonized

Other use paddles behind the steering wheel, just a quick flick on the minus lever will drop down a gear.


CVT's have a "Brake Mode".
It's a "B" on the shifter like in all the Toyota Hybrid models or "L" for low on others.
It puts drag on the gearbox to help engine braking (though some think it's used to increase regen braking).
CVT vs automatic transmission: What’s the difference? | DC News Now

EV's tend to use one of two ways to overcome this lower gear ratio problem.
First some have the facility to select a one pedal drive mode (or as near as they can to a one pedal drive).
This introduces lots of drag on the drive train when you lift your foot off the accelerator without touching the brakes.

Another common things with most really modern autos, including some EV's is that they sense a decent.
There's a sensor in the car that monitors the angle of the car.
When it detects the car pointing down a steep hill it'll automatically limit the highest gear it selects to try and match the decent.
It's just another version of what is commonly called a hill decent system.

Mine does this even though it has paddles. If I crest a really steep hill just as I'm thinking of flicking the minus paddle it'll select a lower gear and bumble down with the engine doing all if not most of the braking.

 

An excellent overview there, thank you.

So the driver can choose to "mess with the gears" by using a manual shifter or 'paddles' if the car is so equipped, or not - as he / she so chooses.

Lots of driver involvement or none.

Both choices are good.

No need to rev the engine to extremes or pretend one is driving a Ferrari.

Goudy

Depending on the model/make/year there will be a way to hold a lower gear.
If there isn't, the car will almost certainly do it for you when it thinks it's needed, like down a steep slope.

My car has a DCT and comes with Paddles, they aren't really needed as it tends to detect a steep slope, but there are one or two occasions a flick on one paddle or the other is preferred, by me. 

I can drive it totally in "manual mode" with the paddles determining the shifts, but why would you buy an auto and do it ALL yourself?
Occasionally, instead of a quick prod of the brake pedal before a bend or turn I might flick it down a gear, then once through, flick it back up.

It isn't really needed, just there are the odd times where I would prefer it to be in a lower gear instantly and I'm certain to get it this way without doing anything else, like braking.
Recently it was on a frosty road with a bit of a bend and the "Black Ice" warning was flashing on the dash.
I wasn't really going fast, I just felt I wanted a little more self control and selecting a lower gear myself before it did was what I felt comfortable with. I have the option so why not?


Performance cars with these sorts of gearboxes aren't made/designed for easy of use, comfort or economy.
They are an aid to performance and usually the results are very very different.

Most are totally unacceptable when driven in full auto mode, particularly slowly.
They jerk and stutter and normally "feel" like they don't know what they are doing as the ratios are all wrong for this type of use. The full auto mode is just basically slacken off the speed and slightly changing the timings of the changes, the ratios are still basically performance ones.

Put them in "manual mode" and on a track and they work like nothing else. 
Change times are so quick they are almost impossible to detect or measure, there's just no detectable gaps when the engine and gearbox aren't connected and putting power down through the wheels to help acceleration.
Plus the ratios are designed to keep the engine in it's peak performance window rather than peak economy window like an everyday car would.
Yes, they are the same sort of design ethos, but the results are quite different.

Bonniepurple

I was forced into an automatic by a leg injury.  I wouldn’t ever go back.  Much less tiring, much easier in traffic, and, for me, makes driving more pleasurable. My husband drives both, and my daughter is currently learning in a manual on the basis that if she passes in a manual she can drive whatever-but I’ve said that if she struggles she can switch to an automatic.

NBLondon

I've always owned manuals - but driven autos if borrowed or hire cars in the US.  For many years - I sort of preferred the idea that I was in control.  My current manual Focus has an indicator telling when to change up (for economy) but I learned to ignore that as reading the road ahead sometimes suggested it would only be for 3 or 4 seconds.

However, I now have an automatic on order.  Not so much by choice but because the car I wanted has no manual option (and there were far fewer manual choices than when I last changed).  So reading all this is helpful in preparing to undo almost 40 years of habits...