Brown Paper Delivered Instead of iPhone 16 Pro Max

born_again

eskbanker said:

born_again said:

Interesting one on "Not as described" Might work, but Amazon could contest on the basis of what was sent out. As they should have proof at their end. Or simply not contest & go legal to recover cost.

Absolutely - I wasn't asserting that a 'not as described' chargeback claim was a slam-dunk, guaranteed to succeed, but simply challenging the assertion that it couldn't even be raised as a claim if the retailer has proof of delivery.  It would obviously still need to go through the usual process of claim and then assessment of any response from the merchant....

Didn't think you were 👍

samcathe

born_again said:

eskbanker said:

powerful_Rogue said:

eskbanker said:

powerful_Rogue said:

eskbanker said:

powerful_Rogue said:

From what I gather a chargeback won't work as Amazon will have proof of a delivery.

Surely that would only negate a 'goods not received' claim, rather than a 'goods not as described' one (which can obviously only be raised after delivery!)?

Apparently not according to the chargeback rules. Even if it was delivered to an incorrect address, as long as the retailer can say it was 'delivered', they are covered.

I'm certainly aware of a regular poster on here advising that any sort of delivery notification precludes a 'not delivered' claim, but don't see how delivery prevents a 'not as described' one - do you have sight of an authoritative copy of the relevant rules, as they always seem very opaque?

Nope, I'm just going by the expert in this field - @born_again

There are certainly quite a few credible regulars who clearly have significant experience and knowledge in specialist subject areas, but I'd always be wary of considering any to be 'experts' as such, and all the more so when offering information that can't be independently verified.... (no offence to anyone btw!)

None taken, as I'm sure others will not be either. 👍

Interesting one on "Not as described" Might work, but Amazon could contest on the basis of what was sent out. As they should have proof at their end. Or simply not contest & go legal to recover cost.

In reality chargebacks are not designed for these cases.
So it becomes a case of "What reason can I use" at our end. I have known people do non receipt when customer has clearly stated they have cancelled. Slam dunk rejection if company is on the ball. 

These cases are a nightmare for the receiver. As it really is down to just how good the retailer is at resolving.

To throw this back at the consumer rights "experts" how would this fit in with item only being delivered when handed to purchaser?

With only brown paper in the package, it would weight nothing like a i-phone.
Do Amazon list IMEI number on the invoice? If they do at least it could be blocked.

I agree. It weigh nothing like a iPhone. When I received it, I noticed but because I have never experience anything of this nature, I couldn't react on time. I would have reject the delivery immediately or open it in front of the driver. I am still very much in shock with this incident. 
I have only paid the first instalment, but its really going to be a nightmare paying for something I am not using.

A_Geordie

eskbanker said:

born_again said:

Interesting one on "Not as described" Might work, but Amazon could contest on the basis of what was sent out. As they should have proof at their end. Or simply not contest & go legal to recover cost.

Absolutely - I wasn't asserting that a 'not as described' chargeback claim was a slam-dunk, guaranteed to succeed, but simply challenging the assertion that it would automatically fail if the retailer has proof of delivery.  It would obviously still need to go through the usual process of claim and then assessment of any response from the merchant....

I can confirm that, after reading the Visa Rules on chargeback, reason code 13.1 is for goods not received and 13.3 for goods not as described. For Mastercard, reason code 53/4853 is typically used for both defective/not as described and goods not provided.

My understanding is that if the customer bank decides to refuse a refund based on the evidence provided by the seller's bank - which could simply be evidence of that the package was delivered (but no evidence of the weight), the customer technically has an option to challenge their bank's decision what is known as arbitration, which essentially means the card scheme provider will make a final determination.

Of course this also comes down to how the bank describes/puts forward the dispute which could dictate the response. If the bank made an error in raising the chargeback such as the wrong code, one might argue that they should be held responsible if rejected.

visidigi

samcathe said:

visidigi said:

This is high value, did you not have to give a pin for delivery? Was the security tape intact? When you say brown paper, is it a ream of paper or just the screwed up paper inside they usually include to protect contents?

There's real problems with these high value deliveries of late, there are SO many places that they can be tampered with...

In all honesty, I was a bit suspicious when he delivered the item. I regret not opening the package right in front of him. I opened the item immediately and found a brown paper. I had to run out immediately. Fortunately, the delivery driver was still around. Everything happened within just 5 minutes. 

Did Amazon confirm it was shipped in that packaging? That seems VERY odd to have an open-cornered envelope used where its actually possible to see whats in it without disturbing the packaging. It almost looks like it left the depot inside the paper that you found inside (they are using these new paper reusable bags round here now...

molerat

Unfortunately none of these organisations are willing to admit that organised crime gangs are working in their warehouses and delivery networks.  Warehouse staff pack item and pass package number on so that it can be intercepted in the delivery network. 

eskbanker

A_Geordie said:
For Mastercard, reason code 53/4853 is typically used for both defective/not as described and goods not provided.

Isn't 4855 the one for goods not provided?

A_Geordie

eskbanker said:

A_Geordie said:
For Mastercard, reason code 53/4853 is typically used for both defective/not as described and goods not provided.

Isn't 4855 the one for goods not provided?

Can be used but last time I checked 4855/55 is being phased out. Once it’s phased out 4853 will be used

samcathe

visidigi said:

samcathe said:

visidigi said:

This is high value, did you not have to give a pin for delivery? Was the security tape intact? When you say brown paper, is it a ream of paper or just the screwed up paper inside they usually include to protect contents?

There's real problems with these high value deliveries of late, there are SO many places that they can be tampered with...

In all honesty, I was a bit suspicious when he delivered the item. I regret not opening the package right in front of him. I opened the item immediately and found a brown paper. I had to run out immediately. Fortunately, the delivery driver was still around. Everything happened within just 5 minutes. 

Did Amazon confirm it was shipped in that packaging? That seems VERY odd to have an open-cornered envelope used where its actually possible to see whats in it without disturbing the packaging. It almost looks like it left the depot inside the paper that you found inside (they are using these new paper reusable bags round here now...

They have only come back to me to say they are not refunding or replacing the item after their investigation.
I sent a police report on Saturday and they concluded their investigation on Sunday.

I am still trying to understand how Amazon will be this careless to use this kind of packaging for a high value item.
The item was delivered at 1:42pm and I snapped the picture at 1:46pm. Only a single code was given for the two items, so I had to double check on their website to see the status of the order. I checked the second package again thinking that they put the two items in one packaging. So, I ran out immediately to inform the delivery driver.

Mr.Generous

What a nightmare, I'm about to order a new phone at about £250, and it's going on a credit card for sure!!

TadleyBaggie

This the reason I will never have high value orders delivered, seen too many cases of wrong/missing items being received. I recently ordered a new MackBook Pro from Apple, opted to collect it from local Apple Store.