Snug Octopus (Economy 7) Problems

Scot_39

worlestone said:

@Phones4Chris our meter is as photo below, as far as we're aware (told by Octopus) the switch triggers the off-peak/peak switch for whole of house though two separate consumer units, one with immersion + storage heaters and one for everything else.

@Scot_39 I don't understand much of what you've written, I'm not familiar with the acroynms! I've just had an email from Octopus saying they would change my off peak times to 00:30 to 06:30 as Snug should be, but nothing about the 10 mins offset.  The only way I can deal with that at the moment is turning the off-peak consumer unit between 16:00 - 16:10 to stop the storage heaters from charging at peak rate.  I'll have another go at asking Octopus if they can change this after the Christmas break.

It may or may not be the old switching offset.

If it is and they can change it - over the air (OTA) remotely - then great - and could be useful for others - so please post back if successful.

But the fact remains Octopus are not on the face of it doing anything they havent warned you about in their FAQs - that their could be upto 15m possibly more - periods where you are billed at peak rates for the meter load switched  (ALCS) restricted circuits - so NSH and HW immersion as a rule.

Phones4Chris

@worlestone
Yes, as already mentioned, the meter you have whilst being a 4-port also has a 2A (Amp) ALCS (Auxiliary Load Control Switch) which is used to control the Contactor that switches the whole storage heating and immersion load (that's the thin extra wires coming out of the meter).

I wouldn't worry about this switching off the consumer unit, this "delay" is standard for all off-peak usage, it varies from area to area and is so that not everyone's load switches on at the same instant causing a very large surge in demand on the network.

if the meter is programmed to charge the storage heaters (ie the contactor is operating) then you should be charged at the 9p rate for all but maybe the last few minutes (that includes the rest of the house as well) but you should check that with Octopus BUT you should also make sure that the TOTAL charge time you are getting is what you've agreed with Octopus - if I've understood Octopus's FAQ description correctly. I got the impression from your graph, you are getting more than 7hrs (it looks like 8 !).
Whilst they also say you'll be charged by the 1/2hr meter reading (buckets) rather than the R1 and R2 register readings, it would be interesting to know if the meter switches from R1 to R2 (ie. which register increases) when charging is occuring.

I also hope you'll comment to them about that graph half-hour pricing plot (as I remarked before) it should not be a sloping plot, but square.

Update us when you can please, there's several of us that may be interested in using the tariff.

Ildhund

QrizB said:

worlestone said:

Has anyone else here switched to Octopus Snug and having timing problems?
Apparently the smart signal can take a while to switch between peak/off peak.

E7 switching times are deliberately varied by up to 15 mins in each direction, ...

For appliances switched by the meter ALCS, it makes little difference since the ALCS should switch at the same time as the tariff. 

I don't think this is quite accurate. As I understand it, the variation in switching times is always a delay of up to 30 minutes (so not in each direction). The amount of the delay is randomized, unique and fixed for each meter: 
  

5.7.5.28 Randomised Offset [INFO] The product of the Randomised Offset Limit(5.7.4.33) [set by the installer] and the Randomised Offset Number(5.7.1.5) [set by the manufacturer] rounded to the nearest second. This value is used to delay the Tariff Switching Table times, the Auxiliary Load Control Switch switching times, and HAN Connected Auxiliary Load Control Switch switching times.
SMIP_E2E_SMETS2.pdf 

   
This of course presents a problem if billing blindly uses half-hourly usage data without taking the randomized offset into account.

mmmmikey

A bit of a tangent but something else to throw into the pot which may be helpful.....

My Elnur HHR storage heaters allow you to set the off peak hours. This feature allows you to use the heaters on a single unrestricted supply. The second cable, that would connect to the restricted supply (ALCS controlled or otherwise) in a conventional setup is connected to an unrestricted supply, with the heater settings switching that second supply on and off. So if you are on Octopus Snug and have heaters like this, or heaters with a similar function, you can avoid the issue of storing peak rate electricity by setting the on and off times on the heater. If there is a delay in switching off the ALCS controlled circuit, it doesn't matter because the heater itself will already have turned off that supply at whatever time you set. 

Hope this makes sense? If anyone can think of a less wordy way of saying this, please feel free to do so, my brain is on a go-slow this morning

Scot_39

mmmmikey said:

A bit of a tangent but something else to throw into the pot which may be helpful.....

My Elnur HHR storage heaters allow you to set the off peak hours. This feature allows you to use the heaters on a single unrestricted supply. The second cable, that would connect to the restricted supply (ALCS controlled or otherwise) in a conventional setup is connected to an unrestricted supply, with the heater settings switching that second supply on and off. So if you are on Octopus Snug and have heaters like this, or heaters with a similar function, you can avoid the issue of storing peak rate electricity by setting the on and off times on the heater. If there is a delay in switching off the ALCS controlled circuit, it doesn't matter because the heater itself will already have turned off that supply at whatever time you set. 

Hope this makes sense? If anyone can think of a less wordy way of saying this, please feel free to do so, my brain is on a go-slow this morning

I interpreted the Elnur manual to imply the p01-p04 charge times had to be set regardless of wiring mode  - and they do ship with defaults set (0000 0700 0000 0000) iirc.
But as only 2 slots and i have 3 off peak didnt seek detailed  clarification.

The Dimplex Quantums come with timings not set by default  - all 4 periods (0000 to 0000).  But do then state if set they "... take precedent".  And they would support my 3 periods -  supporting 4 off peak block start stop periods (well strictly 3 if one meter block straddles midnight)
Which I interpreted to mean would bypass auto detect mode in dual wired too.

But many will be using snug with older single wired dumb storage heaters  so wont have the option.

And given iirc Octopus don't guarantee the afternoon slot - even if had the facility - not sure you could simply set 15:10 to 16:00 to avoid the 10min at peak rate.  As if slot moves you'd charge at wrong rates. 
[But then they would have to make sure all meters  alcs updated if then did move - so maybe it wont. 
And again if 1/2 hrly  begs the question what happens when they decide its summer so no longer give the 1 hr cheap rate - again implying ota update to alcs required.
Just another question I would need answering before switching.]

And I assume similarly the 10m problem nominally occurs at 06:30 in the am - which might be less frequent occurence as chances are main charge for many will be regularly sub 6 hrs. 
And again the OPs tariff block colours suggest they aren't sticking to that rigidly either - so could lose say the c1130pm to 00:30 am charging apparently at low rate if alcs matches - (given the high energy demand suspect they do) and not fixed to 0030 0630 +/- xx mins.

Given the preferential rates not sure the upto 15m at peak is the deal breaker.

My old digital e10 meter had like others i have seen pictures of posted here - a +/- 15min sticker on it - but seemed to switch on exact boundaries give or take a minute.  My new e10 smart meter similarly - within 1  ihd update - 10 secs not mins cf other clocks.  But I would again want to know where the 15mins (or more if interpret FAQ most respond within 15mins at worst case - not that its the logical conclusion as that would just be equal to or more than)  comes from and how they were setting the meter alcs registers vs tariff times if different / 1/2 hourly before switching.

Gerry1

mmmmikey said:

If anyone can think of a less wordy way of saying this, please feel free to do so, my brain is on a go-slow this morning

How about this?

"My Elnur HHR storage heaters allow you to set the charging times.  This means you can avoid the expense and hassle of installing a second supply cable simply by linking the heater's charging terminals to the 24h terminals used by its control system. (If upgrading from a simple Box of Bricks NSH, remember to change any existing supply cable from off-peak switched, ALCS controlled or otherwise, to 24h unswitched.)

"Your NSH will now charge only at the times you've set, avoiding any risk of expensive peak rate charging should there be any variance between your ALCS and the strict times applicable on ToU tariffs such as Octopus Snug.

"This workaround can also be used on Dimple Quantum and any similar NSHs that allow you to set the charging times."

Scot_39

Gerry1 said:

mmmmikey said:

If anyone can think of a less wordy way of saying this, please feel free to do so, my brain is on a go-slow this morning

How about this?

"My Elnur HHR storage heaters allow you to set the charging times.  This means you can avoid the expense and hassle of installing a second supply cable simply by linking the heater's charging terminals to the 24h terminals used by its control system. (If upgrading from a simple Box of Bricks NSH, remember to change any existing supply cable from off-peak switched, ALCS controlled or otherwise, to 24h unswitched.)

"Your NSH will now charge only at the times you've set, avoiding any risk of expensive peak rate charging should there be any variance between your ALCS and the strict times applicable on ToU tariffs such as Octopus Snug.

"This workaround can also be used on Dimple Quantum and any similar NSHs that allow you to set the charging times."

Again on the presumption the tariff times and alcs times are fixed - there appears no guarantee of this on the FAQ - but in the reddiit thread linked below - one user says was told it would be 3-4 and would get notified in advance if changed.

They certainly haven't been rigidly following the 00:30 start time for the 6 hours overnight in the OP's daily 1/2 hour consumption chart - more like 11:30pm.

The pre launch (its' coming) time FAQ woollyness - re the 15 mins, the potential setting a max charge window below 6 /7 hours etc or warmth time (now gone ? ) etc was perhaps fine as they firmed up the detail behind the offer concept.

But whilst say 15min window error if charging for several hours is one thing - if repeated for a regular low user like me - that's another.

My average heating and hot water demand - split albeit not quite evenly overnight / afternoon and late evening off peak charge windows - suggests 20 min for HW and 30min for NSH charging averages per off peak period - not always at the start of the 5+3+2 hr windows to make up my E10's 10 hours.  

Even allowing for SNUGs 2 taking those averages upto 30-45min - 2 periods of 15m rate uncertainty a day - could impact my cost estimates - based on such low average charge times.  

But whilst the OP's problem is referenced in the FAQ - should the OP or anyone really be in any doubt whether gets 50 mins or 60 mins at his quoted off peak rate - and of course - potentially paying peak rate for the other 10 min - at the time of signing to an actual contract ?

I am less brave than say the user Tedbob99 posting here

https://www.reddit.com/r/OctopusEnergy/comments/1haf4mn/snug_octopus_for_storage_heaters_is_active_for/

Note "his" time switching delay shift appears to be only 5 mins not 10.

Who seemed happy to switch with his four fairly major questions unanswered.

Others were or have themselves switched back - and one use there talked of one non functioning meter brand - not specified sadly.

But Tedbob99 and other user there do make interesting observations about some of the other "features" like the cap on operating hours overnight - and splitting (*) the 2.5 hrs requested into what looks like 5 1/2 hour slots with gaps. 

Again from the FAQ on What does your schedule look like

"As part of your smart schedule, we aim to charge your storage heaters between 00:30 and 06:30 when electricity is cheapest and greenest. (*) Often this happens in short bursts overnight.

When things get chilly in winter, we'll also smart charge your storage heaters for an hour in the afternoon to keep your home warm and cosy throughout the evening – this will be charged at the off-peak rate. 

It sometimes takes a bit of time for meters to react to smart charging, but most respond within 15 minutes. Any delay that does happen could cause some charging to happen at peak times, which means you'll be charged the day rate."

(*) Linked ?

Its the charged the day rate bit that takes me suspect it's 1/2 hr slot charging - but meter adjusted ALCS timing in reality.

Hopefully over time - as users grow - these things will all become clearer.

And it's good to see a firm like Octopus respond to serve an often seemingly forgotten but significant minority - with such an innovative tariff.  

Although Cosy to me looks a better fit to my E10 in some respects - I don't have a heat pump - and not sure if they would now do ALCS at those times.

Keep_pedalling

worlestone said:

Our offset has been 10 minutes since Octopus fitted a Smart meter 4 years ago.  

I'd not noticed that the Octopus chart showed off peak at 15p! It is 9p/kWh on our agreement.

We haven't chosen our hours, but what has happened during the last week and a bit is that the off peak started off as 00:00 - 06:30 with charging across all the hours and has now changed to charging between 23:00 - 07:00, though there are half hour slots during this time when no charging takes place.

I think my concern with this is not the technicality of how or why it happens, but that Octopus have promoted Snug as having an off peak hour 'boost' in the afternoon.  But it's not, for us it's 50 minutes off peak which then rolls into 10 minutes at peak, so any saving is gone. An hour is 60 minutes after all, not 50

The scale on the right is for the amount actually spent per half hour not the rate. 

Phones4Chris

Keep_pedalling said:

worlestone said:

Our offset has been 10 minutes since Octopus fitted a Smart meter 4 years ago.  

I'd not noticed that the Octopus chart showed off peak at 15p! It is 9p/kWh on our agreement.

We haven't chosen our hours, but what has happened during the last week and a bit is that the off peak started off as 00:00 - 06:30 with charging across all the hours and has now changed to charging between 23:00 - 07:00, though there are half hour slots during this time when no charging takes place.

I think my concern with this is not the technicality of how or why it happens, but that Octopus have promoted Snug as having an off peak hour 'boost' in the afternoon.  But it's not, for us it's 50 minutes off peak which then rolls into 10 minutes at peak, so any saving is gone. An hour is 60 minutes after all, not 50

The scale on the right is for the amount actually spent per half hour not the rate. 

Errr?? What scale on the right? All I see is a Blue graph plot that goes from 15p upto 45p and it's labelled bottom right as "Half-hour pricing (p/kWh)". I agree with @worlestone The graph is clearly wrong and I also commented about it's other deficiencies, nor has the question about when and how many agreed hours ought there to be.

Phones4Chris

@worlestone Any chance of an update?