Car seized by police- odd one

TooManyPoints

Does the law say that a provisional license with a pass certificate is acceptable when the computer says it's provisional?

No, the law does not say that. But nor does it say that it's not acceptable.

What's important is that in order to seize the vehicle the officer has to have "...reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle is or was being driven by the person in contravention of section 87(1)."

Section 87(1) says "It is an offence for a person to drive on a road a motor vehicle of any class otherwise than in accordance with a licence authorising him to drive a motor vehicle of that class."

On his own admission the officer at the scene had no belief that the vehicle was being driven in contravention of s87(1). That's because he realised she was licenced to drive her car. That was evidenced by her provisional licence and her pass certificate which was less than two years old. There was no way she could have been convicted of an offence under that section and he was well aware of that.

What was or was not shown on any computer does not alter that. It is scarcely her fault that between them the police and the DVLA cannot devise a way of recording driving test results among the data they share..

The officer at the scene was correct. The sergeant who was not at the scene was wrong. The seizure that he persuaded or ordered the officer to undertake was undoubtedly unlawful.

Mildly_Miffed

@TooManyPoints - were you on the scene at the time?

TooManyPoints

Certainly not.

But provided what the OP tells us is correct I think I can form a reasonable opinion.

Mildly_Miffed

TooManyPoints said:

Certainly not.

But provided what the OP tells us is correct I think I can form a reasonable opinion.

That "...but provided..." is the elephant in the room here.

We're only going on what the OP is telling us his daughter told him.

There's one VERY important detail which may have been... embellished. Was the pass certificate actually produced at the scene and accepted as valid by the policeman attending?

chrisw

Now we've established that the seizure was likely unlawful, what can be done about it? The OP said they don't want to follow it up but surely it needs correcting to stop it happening to others. Presumably there's a complaints procedure? Does that provide compensation for storage fees, travelling expenses, etc? Is a solicitor needed to sue for unlawful seizure?

Mildly_Miffed

chrisw said:

Now we've established that the seizure was likely unlawful, what can be done about it? The OP said they don't want to follow it up but surely it needs correcting to stop it happening to others. Presumably there's a complaints procedure? Does that provide compensation for storage fees, travelling expenses, etc? Is a solicitor needed to sue for unlawful seizure?

https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/complaints/submit-a-complaint

Car_54

chrisw said:

Now we've established that the seizure was likely unlawful, what can be done about it? The OP said they don't want to follow it up but surely it needs correcting to stop it happening to others. Presumably there's a complaints procedure? Does that provide compensation for storage fees, travelling expenses, etc? Is a solicitor needed to sue for unlawful seizure?

As you say, "they don't want to follow it up". That is probably the end of the matter.

Even if it is followed up, how will it stop it happening again? It's a big deal for the OP's daughter, but for the police it's pretty small beer. The most that might happen is a reminder to all officers about pass certificates, which will quickly be forgotten amongst all the murders, rapes, stabbing, etc.

Baldytyke88

Car_54 said:

As you say, "they don't want to follow it up". That is probably the end of the matter.

Even if it is followed up, how will it stop it happening again? It's a big deal for the OP's daughter, but for the police it's pretty small beer. The most that might happen is a reminder to all officers about pass certificates, which will quickly be forgotten amongst all the murders, rapes, stabbing, etc.

The police officer in charge back at the station wanted to believe what the computer said; it's probably right 99% of the time.

Some people are very good at making stuff up.

TooManyPoints

That "...but provided..." is the elephant in the room here.

We're only going on what the OP is telling us his daughter told him.

On forums like this, unless the description is outrageously suspect, contributors must accept what they are told. I mentioned my proviso considerably earlier upthread and any conclusions I reached were based on that version of events.

I don't doubt anything the OP says. It seems perfectly feasible to me.

Was the pass certificate actually produced at the scene and accepted as valid by the policeman attending?

I don't doubt that it was either. If it wasn't it is likely that the driver would have been warned she faced prosecution and (again, accepting the OP's version) she wasn't. On the contrary, the officer accepted that she was driving perfectly legally.

The problem seems to have begun when the DVLA records were interrogated. Quite why they were is unclear because the driver had by then produced documents to show she was driving legally and that should have been the end of the matter. 

But the aspect of this thread which really irked me (and caused me to persist with it for so long) was that a number of answers clearly laid the blame on the driver when in fact she had done nothing wrong. But because she had decided (for whatever reason) to take advantage of some or all of the two year period she had in which to exchange her licence, this meant the blame lay firmly at her door.

I'm not so sure that anything needs to be done because I doubt too many drivers have encountered this problem. I would imagine most police officers when faced with this situation would understand the deficiencies of the DVLA data. The OP seems to be content now that common sense eventually prevailed. It's just a pity it was not a bit more prevalent at the roadside.

1jim

I would just like to thank those who provided constructive advice. everything i have posted was/is accurate- as i was seeking specific advice there would be no benefit to lying or embellishing as that could/would have had a detrimental impact on the advice being sought.

I am sorry that one of the posters sought to suggest another poster had learning difficulties, its a shame that this sought of comment still crops up from time to time and does not reflect well on that individual.

In any event, the information posted was accurate, a lot of the posts were very helpful (those posters know who they are) and would have been more so had this not been resolved on the same day. We do not intend to pursue this- it wasnt the individual officers fault- his hands became tied and he was incredibly helpful both at the scene and at the station later (and I suspect would not achieve any significant change, and I would much rather the Police used the time to focus on other things).

Thank you again to those that helped, and to those who sought to blame my daughter- I truly hope that you/none of your family members ever do anything to draw attention to themselves or do something different to the usual (even if that is within the law). 

I hope everyone has a fantastic christmas