Car seized by police- odd one

1jim

Okell said:

Seems to me this isn't about whether she was entitled to drive but rather about whether or not she can produce the required documents within the prescribed timescale.

@1jim - I'd start a thread over on FTLA pronto/ASAP if I were you:   Speeding and other criminal offences

(I say "if I were you" but it would be much better if your daughter posted herself.  For obvious reasons they can't be bothered wasting their time on "send three and fourpence we're going to a dance" scenarios... )

all sorted- she saw same officer by chance at the station who helped her with this
same documents produced and reviewed and car now ok to be released
reiterated that he didnt want to take car but was instructed to.

suspect a very unusual situation and somone in control room hadnt come across before. Thanks for the link to that board- didnt know was there 

TooManyPoints

Good (and sensible) outcome.

Having pondered on this for a couple of hours I was going to suggest a more robust approach was required. The individual officer who seized her car had no reasonable grounds to believe she was driving contrary to s87(1). He would have to have suspected her pass certificate was either invalid or fake and it’s quite clear he had no such suspicions. I firmly believe her car was seized unlawfully.

Seems to me this isn't about whether she was entitled to drive but rather about whether or not she can produce the required documents within the prescribed timescale. 

It's also why they seized the car, because she couldn't prove she was driving it in accordance with a valid full licence.

She produced the required documents at the roadside. She cannot produce what she does not have and which the police officer knew (or should have known) she could not obtain within seven days. It was pointless expecting her to do so. She had all the documents she needed and produced them. She had no requirement to exchange her licence until two years after she passed her test. Whether or not it’s sensible to delay that exchange is not the point – she’s entitled to do so.

There's potential for a charge of 'taking without owners consent',…

Whilst that may be technically correct, I cannot see a court in the land recording a conviction if that charge was put to the officer – especially when he was acting on the instructions of his sergeant. More than that, I cannot see the CPS authorising such a charge.

Okell

1jim said:

Okell said:

Seems to me this isn't about whether she was entitled to drive but rather about whether or not she can produce the required documents within the prescribed timescale.

@1jim - I'd start a thread over on FTLA pronto/ASAP if I were you:   Speeding and other criminal offences

(I say "if I were you" but it would be much better if your daughter posted herself.  For obvious reasons they can't be bothered wasting their time on "send three and fourpence we're going to a dance" scenarios... )

all sorted- she saw same officer by chance at the station who helped her with this
same documents produced and reviewed and car now ok to be released
reiterated that he didnt want to take car but was instructed to.

suspect a very unusual situation and somone in control room hadnt come across before. Thanks for the link to that board- didnt know was there 

Taking account of what you've said above - and also @TooManyPoints comments, - I'd be inclined to make a formal complaint against which ever police officer created this situation.

My initial view was that your daughter should have acted more promptly in getting her provisional licence converted to a full licence, but if it's true* that she needed to retain her provisional licence for ID purposes, then the reporting officer ought to have taken that into account at the appropriate stage of the process.


*  Of course if she didn't need to retain her provisional licence for ID purposes then this falls on her.  As a retired NHS manager who used to have some responsibility for student nurses, I can't stress how important it is for nurses to know traffic law...

Aretnap

It would be a civil suit against the police for unlawful interference with goods. The daughter would be able to reclaim any fees paid for the car's release, plus any incidental expenses that she had incurred because of the seizure (alternative transport, taxi fares etc).

If the officer had a genuine but mistaken belief that he had lawful authority to seize the car that would provide a defence to a criminal charge of TWOc, but not too a civil claim for unlawful interference with goods. Pryor v Greater Manchester Police is probably the most relevant case law. 

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff7a960d03e7f57eb0f7b

1jim

Okell said:

1jim said:

Okell said:

Seems to me this isn't about whether she was entitled to drive but rather about whether or not she can produce the required documents within the prescribed timescale.

@1jim - I'd start a thread over on FTLA pronto/ASAP if I were you:   Speeding and other criminal offences

(I say "if I were you" but it would be much better if your daughter posted herself.  For obvious reasons they can't be bothered wasting their time on "send three and fourpence we're going to a dance" scenarios... )

all sorted- she saw same officer by chance at the station who helped her with this
same documents produced and reviewed and car now ok to be released
reiterated that he didnt want to take car but was instructed to.

suspect a very unusual situation and somone in control room hadnt come across before. Thanks for the link to that board- didnt know was there 

Taking account of what you've said above - and also @TooManyPoints comments, - I'd be inclined to make a formal complaint against which ever police officer created this situation.

My initial view was that your daughter should have acted more promptly in getting her provisional licence converted to a full licence, but if it's true* that she needed to retain her provisional licence for ID purposes, then the reporting officer ought to have taken that into account at the appropriate stage of the process.


*  Of course if she didn't need to retain her provisional licence for ID purposes then this falls on her.  As a retired NHS manager who used to have some responsibility for student nurses, I can't stress how important it is for nurses to know traffic law...

I dont disagree about acting more promptly, however she has 2 years to exchange the certificate- if she sends off the certificate tomorrow what would there be to stop a similar incident/event occurring in 2 days time?  if there is a time limit imposed, as long as she exchanges within the time frame she is compliant with the law.  Im not sure what traffic law you think she has contravened?

as a current nurse and nhs manager i wouldnt be inclined to make any complaint against public service- we can all make mistakes 

TooManyPoints

"...but if it's true* that she needed to retain her provisional licence for ID purposes,...

Of course if she didn't need to retain her provisional licence for ID purposes then this falls on her."

She does not need an excuse - let alone one which she can substantiate - to retain her provisional licence. She has no requirement to exchange it until the two years are up. 

"...as a current nurse and nhs manager i wouldnt be inclined to make any complaint against public service- we can all make mistakes 

Indeed we can. So long as they are rectified swiftly with little or no damage done then that's OK. Your original post gave me the impression that the police were not going to shift on this. I can understand maybe a fairly inexperienced PC getting this wrong, but a sergeant should know better. After all, it only needs a bit of thought to establish that the position they took was nonsensical.

Mildly_Miffed

Two years from pass date is the absolute maximum she can wait before registering the pass with DVLA and upgrading her licence to full.

There is absolutely zero upside to waiting any longer than absolutely necessary, and a huge amount of potential downside. She has already taken a year longer than basic common sense suggests wise...

Baldytyke88

1jim said:

police have seized car as the dvla has her as a provision license holder

Sounds like she needs to update her license ASAP

1jim

Mildly_Miffed said:

Two years from pass date is the absolute maximum she can wait before registering the pass with DVLA and upgrading her licence to full.

There is absolutely zero upside to waiting any longer than absolutely necessary, and a huge amount of potential downside. She has already taken a year longer than basic common sense suggests wise...

So this situation couldn't have arisen in the days after sending the paperwork off then? What would she then have done?

1jim

Baldytyke88 said:

1jim said:

police have seized car as the dvla has her as a provision license holder

Sounds like she needs to update her license ASAP

Helpful insight thanks