Mirror Wills or Mutual Wills

critchley

Flugelhorn said:

critchley said:

mattojgb said:

Given that there are two "properties", I'm not sure that this changes anything. We already know that your ex solely owned the freehold property and that you were joint owner of the leasehold property.

But according to the document we found today, I am not the Tenant in Common of the flat we lived in together all these years because I apparently signed it all over to him when he got his own mortgage and paid off mine which I had originally when I first bought it before he moved in with me.  

So there is the freehold flat in his sole name and the leasehold flat we lived together in also in his sole name.  Every day something else bad seems to turn up.  I honestly don't remember signing anything to that effect but there it is in black and white so I don't think there is any doubt about it.  It means that instead of only paying IHT on half our flat I will have to pay it on all of it I presume.  

the Land Registry info is the definitive source  which shows that you are the joint owner of the leasehold flats (there are 2 I think) and that your late husband own the freehold of the building in his name 

Thank you.  So should I let things lie or should I query it with the Solicitor.  I don't want them to go digging and maybe find out that it had been registered, just not updated?  Or is that naive of me and it could come to light anyway?
By the way there is only 2 flats in total.  The freehold downstairs flat and the leasehold upstairs flat which we lived in.  I'm worried that if I do the IT based on me owning half of it and it turns out that he did own all of it, it will just make another complication.  @Land_Registry did give me a lot of information but I couldn't take it all in.  I read and re-read it but it was a bit beyond my comprehension.  Especially with this flat not having much left on the lease.  If I become the freeholder of the one flat and leaseholder of the other can I just grant myself an extension to the lease without any money changing hands and how does that affect it as far as valuing it for IT?  I presume that couldn't happen until after Probate when the properties are officially mine.  I am the Excutor of the Will as well as the beneficiary.  I just can't seem to get it in chronological order.  I'm just going round in circles and getting nowhere.
Another point, not only were we not married but the property was originally held as Tenants in Common not joint tenants.  
Sorry this must be doing everyone's head in as it is doing to mine.  It just seems like a chicken and egg situation to my simple mind.  

Land_Registry

There is always a lot of information to take in and to be frank it's not unusual for it not to make complete sense all of the time, especially when you thought one thing had happened and as you discover more information. Throw in the fact that wills, inheritance, tenants in common, IHT and much more trying to unravel and understand it all on your own is always going to be tricky. I would be exactly the same as all aspects spread across a number of topics not all of which involve HMLR - hence you must rely on your solicitor to consider everything and advise you as appropriate.
The following are an attempt to shed some light on matters that might involve HMLR and which may enable others to add further commentary but it won't answer all your Qs or provide perfect clarity although it may help.

1. The property - you refer to it as 2 flats which it is but it's key to understand that of the two flats only the one is registered leasehold. That's in your joint names and includes a form A restriction. The restriction relates to the TIC aspect you refer to.
2. The register is never definitive re how you hold a property, be that as TIC or joint tenants. RAS refers to people not always updating the register re changes re wills/joint tenancy/TIC but they don't always have to. Wills and beneficial shares etc can all still be legally binding and have the desired impact whether there's a form A restriction or not on the title. The form A restriction merely restricts a sole surviving owner as per it's wording but a will, trust deed or more can also do that but not from a registration perspective. NOTE - but let's not even go there from a discussion point as it's important to read the registers and the wills etc to understand what happens next re the legal and beneficial ownership
3. The other flat forms part of the larger freehold but there's no separate registered or noted lease for it. The freehold covers the whole of the plot so the land and whole building and it is registered in the deceased's sole name. Probate is therefore needed to deal with the freehold/whole property as it now forms part of his estate. The executor can then update the register as appropriate and in accordance with any wills etc. 
4. You can't grant yourself a lease extension. As you are his executor and beneficiary you can transfer the freehold to yourself and in doing so decide what you then wish to do with your current lease - I assume that will depend on what's happening re the other flat as well but again something to discuss options with your solicitor.

I doubt if your thread is 'doing people's heads in' but it is providing helpful insight into the issues that property owners can face especially after a partner dies. You do have a fairly unique set of circumstances re the freehold/leasehold arrangement/ownership but nothing a solicitor cannot advise you on and unravel.
The complications will most likely arise re IHT responsibilities and what's due and how best to deal with as appropriate
You've done the often-hardest part which is obtain probate and if the wills and wishes are clear then next steps can hopefully follow with relative ease albeit some form filling.
Looking further ahead understanding your options as freeholder/leaseholder and what's 'best' based on your future plans is also key. Very personal discussion and decisions to make with legal advice.
It reads to me at least that you have all the information you need to work through the property ownerships, IHT needs and what to do in the future - just a case of working through that with your legal rep. I'm not suggesting it's simple to understand it all but you have all you seem to need to have a clear set of answers and next steps/options

poseidon1

Following on Land_Registry's latest post , Critchley  can I suggest it is time for you to cease posting on this thread and get yourself in front of a solicitor forthwith, and let that individual set out a detailed roadmap of action on your behalf, armed with the very helpful insights from the Land Registry.

There is nothing more anyone else here can usefully add beyond more 'tea and sympathy' and as you point out you now seem  to  have worked yourself into a state of paralysis.

A legal adviser now needs to unpick this situation on your behalf. There is no aspect of your current predicament you can resolve yourself.

critchley

Land_Registry said:

There is always a lot of information to take in and to be frank it's not unusual for it not to make complete sense all of the time, especially when you thought one thing had happened and as you discover more information. Throw in the fact that wills, inheritance, tenants in common, IHT and much more trying to unravel and understand it all on your own is always going to be tricky. I would be exactly the same as all aspects spread across a number of topics not all of which involve HMLR - hence you must rely on your solicitor to consider everything and advise you as appropriate.
The following are an attempt to shed some light on matters that might involve HMLR and which may enable others to add further commentary but it won't answer all your Qs or provide perfect clarity although it may help.

1. The property - you refer to it as 2 flats which it is but it's key to understand that of the two flats only the one is registered leasehold. That's in your joint names and includes a form A restriction. The restriction relates to the TIC aspect you refer to.
2. The register is never definitive re how you hold a property, be that as TIC or joint tenants. RAS refers to people not always updating the register re changes re wills/joint tenancy/TIC but they don't always have to. Wills and beneficial shares etc can all still be legally binding and have the desired impact whether there's a form A restriction or not on the title. The form A restriction merely restricts a sole surviving owner as per it's wording but a will, trust deed or more can also do that but not from a registration perspective. NOTE - but let's not even go there from a discussion point as it's important to read the registers and the wills etc to understand what happens next re the legal and beneficial ownership
3. The other flat forms part of the larger freehold but there's no separate registered or noted lease for it. The freehold covers the whole of the plot so the land and whole building and it is registered in the deceased's sole name. Probate is therefore needed to deal with the freehold/whole property as it now forms part of his estate. The executor can then update the register as appropriate and in accordance with any wills etc. 
4. You can't grant yourself a lease extension. As you are his executor and beneficiary you can transfer the freehold to yourself and in doing so decide what you then wish to do with your current lease - I assume that will depend on what's happening re the other flat as well but again something to discuss options with your solicitor.

I doubt if your thread is 'doing people's heads in' but it is providing helpful insight into the issues that property owners can face especially after a partner dies. You do have a fairly unique set of circumstances re the freehold/leasehold arrangement/ownership but nothing a solicitor cannot advise you on and unravel.
The complications will most likely arise re IHT responsibilities and what's due and how best to deal with as appropriate
You've done the often-hardest part which is obtain probate and if the wills and wishes are clear then next steps can hopefully follow with relative ease albeit some form filling.
Looking further ahead understanding your options as freeholder/leaseholder and what's 'best' based on your future plans is also key. Very personal discussion and decisions to make with legal advice.
It reads to me at least that you have all the information you need to work through the property ownerships, IHT needs and what to do in the future - just a case of working through that with your legal rep. I'm not suggesting it's simple to understand it all but you have all you seem to need to have a clear set of answers and next steps/options

Thanks for your comments and I agree that there is nothing more that can be added and I just have to wait for the advice from a Solicitor.  As to your comment about having obtained Probate, no I haven't as I assumed that the Will had to be verified as not being in any doubt and IHT paid before you could apply for Probate.  Is this not the case?  Everything I have read has lead me to believe this.  As my son keeps telling me "you can't believe all you read online" but I did think this was written in stone to be honest.  

Anyway, as you say, I'm sure the Solicitor will point me in the right direction when I see them after Christmas.  At this point in time I know only what has been set out here and what I've read for myself.

Thanks again for all your help in trying to untangle this mess.  

Have a great Christmas xxxxx

Land_Registry

critchley said:

Thanks for your comments and I agree that there is nothing more that can be added and I just have to wait for the advice from a Solicitor.  As to your comment about having obtained Probate, no I haven't as I assumed that the Will had to be verified as not being in any doubt and IHT paid before you could apply for Probate.  Is this not the case?  Everything I have read has lead me to believe this.  As my son keeps telling me "you can't believe all you read online" but I did think this was written in stone to be honest.  

Anyway, as you say, I'm sure the Solicitor will point me in the right direction when I see them after Christmas.  At this point in time I know only what has been set out here and what I've read for myself.

Thanks again for all your help in trying to untangle this mess.  

Have a great Christmas xxxxx

Apologies as I misread you most recent post re probate.
Have a read of this online guidance which explains in the follow up Qs how Yes, IHT needs to be sorted first - How long does probate take - timeline and stages of probate | Co-op Legal Services
And remember if probate is not an option for any reason to do with his will, then letters of Administration is the alternative way forward - separate out the timeline and issues as you see them and then take the legal advice in the new year
Totally understand the worry and stress involved here and also the comment re not believing everything you read online. The saving grace here is that the legal ownership aspects are relatively simple to deal with. IHT simply needs to be fully understood. And then what happens next re the property as a whole and as flats comes after that. All 'doable' but will need careful consideration but the worry/stress can be parked for now knowing that you are doing absolutely the right thing by relying on legal advice 
Merry Christmas to you also 

FlorayG

@critchley did you ever get this sorted?