DIY holiday

eskbanker

zagfles said:
I'm not sure what people expect, staff to be available to book you a hotel, tell you where to get something to eat, or look up alternative flights?

The regulations do literally place a legal obligation on the airline to offer accommodation, meals, and alternative flights, albeit not necessarily via onsite staff.

The CAA considers that passengers making their own rebooking arrangements may be sensible but only in exceptional circumstances:

During periods of mass disruption there may be times when implementing a ‘pay and claim’ system (whereby passengers are empowered to organise, and pay for, their own re-routing, and to claim re-imbursement of the cost back from the airline) provides a quicker and more effective solution for the majority of affected passengers.

[...]

While the obligation remains with airlines to organise re-routing, in considering whether an airline has complied with its obligations under Article 8 of UK (EU) Reg No 261/2004 the CAA will take account of situations where the airlines has implemented a ‘pay and claim’ system and how well this has worked for affected passengers in practice.

Re-routing in accordance with Article 8 of Regulation (EU) 261/2004

It's not really about whether or not people are capable of taking care of this (and many of us will prefer to!) but the regulatory obligations retained by the airline....

Voyager2002

zagfles said:

bagand96 said:

Voyager2002 said:

bagand96 said:

That is fine in principle... in practice, there is always the worry that a last-minute replacement flight is really expensive, and what if the airline refuse to pay? We are supposed to give them a reasonable opportunity to make the booking. When it turns out to be difficult to communicate with the airline, it is hard to know at what point to give up and pay a high price for last-minute alternative arrangements.

You are correct there is always the worry.  I'm fortunate that I know and understand my EC261 rights pretty well, but accept not all passengers will do (although they are notified at the time of booking/check-in).  I've never actually been in the situation abroad with a last minute cancellation but I'd ensure I made reasonable efforts to deal with the airline, screenshot everything I could, including replacement flight options and costs, same with hotels etc.

It does make it much easier if it's a UK based operator knowing that Small Claims is an easy fallback.

Similar happened to me a few times, including last minute cancellation, and missed connections. I'm not sure what people expect, staff to be available to book you a hotel, tell you where to get something to eat, or look up alternative flights? If you're not capable of that best stick to packages. But you booked the flights/hotels in the first place so why wouldn't you be? 

OK, so how about this situation (something I experienced a few years ago). You are at Stansted; your Ryanair flight cost just five pounds but has been cancelled. You look online, and see that a 'legacy carrier' has a flight from London City that you could just about make, obviously at a vastly higher price than five pounds. Meanwhile you are in a very slow-moving queue to speak to someone at the Ryanair desk, who will presumably attempt to book you on to a Ryanair flight. (And more context: I don't think I knew this at the time, but Ryanair had another flight to my destination that evening. Once I reached the desk I found out about it, and that it was completely full.) Airlines always try to rebook passengers on to their own flights, and the threat is always there that if you choose a different and far more expensive airline they will not pay the bill.

eskbanker

Voyager2002 said:
OK, so how about this situation (something I experienced a few years ago). You are at Stansted; your Ryanair flight cost just five pounds but has been cancelled. You look online, and see that a 'legacy carrier' has a flight from London City that you could just about make, obviously at a vastly higher price than five pounds. Meanwhile you are in a very slow-moving queue to speak to someone at the Ryanair desk, who will presumably attempt to book you on to a Ryanair flight. (And more context: I don't think I knew this at the time, but Ryanair had another flight to my destination that evening. Once I reached the desk I found out about it, and that it was completely full.) Airlines always try to rebook passengers on to their own flights, and the threat is always there that if you choose a different and far more expensive airline they will not pay the bill.

For future reference, the best way to deal with that is likely to be to go to the Ryanair app or website immediately on being informed of the cancellation, and to rebook there, even if you do so while standing in a queue to speak to someone - had you done so at the time you might have secured one of the seats on the later flight that had all been filled by the time you reached the front.

If there isn't a suitable option to get you there 'at the earliest opportunity' then take some screenshots and book elsewhere, ensuring you have an audit trail to support the claim.

zagfles

eskbanker said:

zagfles said:
I'm not sure what people expect, staff to be available to book you a hotel, tell you where to get something to eat, or look up alternative flights?

The regulations do literally place a legal obligation on the airline to offer accommodation, meals, and alternative flights, albeit not necessarily via onsite staff.

The CAA considers that passengers making their own rebooking arrangements may be sensible but only in exceptional circumstances:

During periods of mass disruption there may be times when implementing a ‘pay and claim’ system (whereby passengers are empowered to organise, and pay for, their own re-routing, and to claim re-imbursement of the cost back from the airline) provides a quicker and more effective solution for the majority of affected passengers.

[...]

While the obligation remains with airlines to organise re-routing, in considering whether an airline has complied with its obligations under Article 8 of UK (EU) Reg No 261/2004 the CAA will take account of situations where the airlines has implemented a ‘pay and claim’ system and how well this has worked for affected passengers in practice.

Re-routing in accordance with Article 8 of Regulation (EU) 261/2004

It's not really about whether or not people are capable of taking care of this (and many of us will prefer to!) but the regulatory obligations retained by the airline....

In which case what's the essential difference between what a package holiday provider has to do compared to an airline in the case of disruption? It seems some people worry about doing a "DIY" holiday in case they get cancelled flights etc. If they have not only similar regulatory protection as package holidays but also the ability to sort stuff out for themselves and reclaim if necessary, then why the fear of so called "DIY".

zagfles

Voyager2002 said:

zagfles said:

bagand96 said:

Voyager2002 said:

bagand96 said:

That is fine in principle... in practice, there is always the worry that a last-minute replacement flight is really expensive, and what if the airline refuse to pay? We are supposed to give them a reasonable opportunity to make the booking. When it turns out to be difficult to communicate with the airline, it is hard to know at what point to give up and pay a high price for last-minute alternative arrangements.

You are correct there is always the worry.  I'm fortunate that I know and understand my EC261 rights pretty well, but accept not all passengers will do (although they are notified at the time of booking/check-in).  I've never actually been in the situation abroad with a last minute cancellation but I'd ensure I made reasonable efforts to deal with the airline, screenshot everything I could, including replacement flight options and costs, same with hotels etc.

It does make it much easier if it's a UK based operator knowing that Small Claims is an easy fallback.

Similar happened to me a few times, including last minute cancellation, and missed connections. I'm not sure what people expect, staff to be available to book you a hotel, tell you where to get something to eat, or look up alternative flights? If you're not capable of that best stick to packages. But you booked the flights/hotels in the first place so why wouldn't you be? 

OK, so how about this situation (something I experienced a few years ago). You are at Stansted; your Ryanair flight cost just five pounds but has been cancelled. You look online, and see that a 'legacy carrier' has a flight from London City that you could just about make, obviously at a vastly higher price than five pounds. Meanwhile you are in a very slow-moving queue to speak to someone at the Ryanair desk, who will presumably attempt to book you on to a Ryanair flight. (And more context: I don't think I knew this at the time, but Ryanair had another flight to my destination that evening. Once I reached the desk I found out about it, and that it was completely full.) Airlines always try to rebook passengers on to their own flights, and the threat is always there that if you choose a different and far more expensive airline they will not pay the bill.

I was in a virtually identical situation. Booked my own flight, next day, plus hotel & taxi to different airport, reclaimed all the expenses, paid about 10 days later. Mind you it wasn't Ryanair. 

eskbanker

zagfles said:

eskbanker said:

zagfles said:
I'm not sure what people expect, staff to be available to book you a hotel, tell you where to get something to eat, or look up alternative flights?

The regulations do literally place a legal obligation on the airline to offer accommodation, meals, and alternative flights, albeit not necessarily via onsite staff.

The CAA considers that passengers making their own rebooking arrangements may be sensible but only in exceptional circumstances:

During periods of mass disruption there may be times when implementing a ‘pay and claim’ system (whereby passengers are empowered to organise, and pay for, their own re-routing, and to claim re-imbursement of the cost back from the airline) provides a quicker and more effective solution for the majority of affected passengers.

[...]

While the obligation remains with airlines to organise re-routing, in considering whether an airline has complied with its obligations under Article 8 of UK (EU) Reg No 261/2004 the CAA will take account of situations where the airlines has implemented a ‘pay and claim’ system and how well this has worked for affected passengers in practice.

Re-routing in accordance with Article 8 of Regulation (EU) 261/2004

It's not really about whether or not people are capable of taking care of this (and many of us will prefer to!) but the regulatory obligations retained by the airline....

In which case what's the essential difference between what a package holiday provider has to do compared to an airline in the case of disruption? It seems some people worry about doing a "DIY" holiday in case they get cancelled flights etc. If they have not only similar regulatory protection as package holidays but also the ability to sort stuff out for themselves and reclaim if necessary, then why the fear of so called "DIY".

With a DIY booking the airline is obliged to deal with it, but with a package, the passenger can call on either the package provider or the airline, and in some cases reported on here, the agent has handled the situation better than the airline.

However, my view is that package advocates primarily value the joined-up nature of the arrangement, which offers greater protection, so, if, for example, a flight is cancelled en route to a holiday destination, delaying arrival by 24 hours, a package provider would need to adjust the accommodation booking (and refund one night's cost) whereas a DIYer would be on their own to do so, running the risk of a scenario like this recently posted one: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6567668/cancelled-ej-flight-lost-disney-holiday

On your last point about the ability to self-rebook and reclaim, this isn't guaranteed to succeed, in that the regulations aren't written with that in mind, and so, as above, it leaves the passenger exposed if the airline challenges the cost of the revised arrangements.

zagfles

eskbanker said:

zagfles said:

eskbanker said:

zagfles said:
I'm not sure what people expect, staff to be available to book you a hotel, tell you where to get something to eat, or look up alternative flights?

The regulations do literally place a legal obligation on the airline to offer accommodation, meals, and alternative flights, albeit not necessarily via onsite staff.

The CAA considers that passengers making their own rebooking arrangements may be sensible but only in exceptional circumstances:

During periods of mass disruption there may be times when implementing a ‘pay and claim’ system (whereby passengers are empowered to organise, and pay for, their own re-routing, and to claim re-imbursement of the cost back from the airline) provides a quicker and more effective solution for the majority of affected passengers.

[...]

While the obligation remains with airlines to organise re-routing, in considering whether an airline has complied with its obligations under Article 8 of UK (EU) Reg No 261/2004 the CAA will take account of situations where the airlines has implemented a ‘pay and claim’ system and how well this has worked for affected passengers in practice.

Re-routing in accordance with Article 8 of Regulation (EU) 261/2004

It's not really about whether or not people are capable of taking care of this (and many of us will prefer to!) but the regulatory obligations retained by the airline....

In which case what's the essential difference between what a package holiday provider has to do compared to an airline in the case of disruption? It seems some people worry about doing a "DIY" holiday in case they get cancelled flights etc. If they have not only similar regulatory protection as package holidays but also the ability to sort stuff out for themselves and reclaim if necessary, then why the fear of so called "DIY".

With a DIY booking the airline is obliged to deal with it, but with a package, the passenger can call on either the package provider or the airline, and in some cases reported on here, the agent has handled the situation better than the airline.

But also there've been issues where the airline has refused to talk to the customer about the booking and referred them to the agent, who may be hard to contact or in a different time zone, in fact the usual advice here is to book flights direct rather than for instance using the agents skyscanner etc link to. 

However, my view is that package advocates primarily value the joined-up nature of the arrangement, which offers greater protection, so, if, for example, a flight is cancelled en route to a holiday destination, delaying arrival by 24 hours, a package provider would need to adjust the accommodation booking (and refund one night's cost) whereas a DIYer would be on their own to do so, running the risk of a scenario like this recently posted one: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6567668/cancelled-ej-flight-lost-disney-holiday

But I don't think that would have helped with any expensive arrangements made at the destination for instance Disney tickets etc unless they were part of the package. Accommodation adjustments yes, although IME I've always found it easy to rearrange accommodation for a variety of reasons, including flight connections missed, flight changes, destination being snowed in etc. Hotels have IME been very good with this, I've had "non refundable/changeable" accommodation changed with no charge/cancelled with refund a few times. 

On your last point about the ability to self-rebook and reclaim, this isn't guaranteed to succeed, in that the regulations aren't written with that in mind, and so, as above, it leaves the passenger exposed if the airline challenges the cost of the revised arrangements.

I get the impression that the airline usually wants you to sort it yourself so they don't have to. It's probably better for the traveller too, last time it happened in the Caribbean where my flight was delayed a day, we were staying in a beautiful area on the other side of the island from the airport, I just asked the hotel if I could stay another night and the car hire company if I could have an extra day, and claimed that plus meals etc. If they'd arranged it we'd have probably been put up in some boring airport hotel, the airport being in a grotty unsafe area with nothing to do around it. 

It's only happened once to me where the airline have arranged the accommodation and provided meal vouchers etc, that was a missed connection so they put me up in an airport hotel. 

eskbanker

zagfles said:

eskbanker said:

zagfles said:

eskbanker said:

zagfles said:
I'm not sure what people expect, staff to be available to book you a hotel, tell you where to get something to eat, or look up alternative flights?

The regulations do literally place a legal obligation on the airline to offer accommodation, meals, and alternative flights, albeit not necessarily via onsite staff.

The CAA considers that passengers making their own rebooking arrangements may be sensible but only in exceptional circumstances:

During periods of mass disruption there may be times when implementing a ‘pay and claim’ system (whereby passengers are empowered to organise, and pay for, their own re-routing, and to claim re-imbursement of the cost back from the airline) provides a quicker and more effective solution for the majority of affected passengers.

[...]

While the obligation remains with airlines to organise re-routing, in considering whether an airline has complied with its obligations under Article 8 of UK (EU) Reg No 261/2004 the CAA will take account of situations where the airlines has implemented a ‘pay and claim’ system and how well this has worked for affected passengers in practice.

Re-routing in accordance with Article 8 of Regulation (EU) 261/2004

It's not really about whether or not people are capable of taking care of this (and many of us will prefer to!) but the regulatory obligations retained by the airline....

In which case what's the essential difference between what a package holiday provider has to do compared to an airline in the case of disruption? It seems some people worry about doing a "DIY" holiday in case they get cancelled flights etc. If they have not only similar regulatory protection as package holidays but also the ability to sort stuff out for themselves and reclaim if necessary, then why the fear of so called "DIY".

With a DIY booking the airline is obliged to deal with it, but with a package, the passenger can call on either the package provider or the airline, and in some cases reported on here, the agent has handled the situation better than the airline.

But also there've been issues where the airline has refused to talk to the customer about the booking and referred them to the agent, who may be hard to contact or in a different time zone, in fact the usual advice here is to book flights direct rather than for instance using the agents skyscanner etc link to. 

Perhaps 'agent' was too vague a term - in the context of DIY v packages, I was really meaning a package organiser (as defined in the Package Travel Regulations) who assembles a mix of flights and accommodation.

In the context of flight-only bookings, as you say, it's usually recommended on here to book direct with airlines, but even when going indirect, I've seen those using a (proper) travel agent to book and who've had good service from them when flights were disrupted.

I've certainly seen reports of airlines directing passengers to booking agents when there are changes needed well in advance of departure, but don't recall seeing anything similar for disruptions at the time of travel, at least not within the UK/EU environment where the regulations offer enhanced protection relative to elsewhere.

zagfles said:

However, my view is that package advocates primarily value the joined-up nature of the arrangement, which offers greater protection, so, if, for example, a flight is cancelled en route to a holiday destination, delaying arrival by 24 hours, a package provider would need to adjust the accommodation booking (and refund one night's cost) whereas a DIYer would be on their own to do so, running the risk of a scenario like this recently posted one: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6567668/cancelled-ej-flight-lost-disney-holiday

But I don't think that would have helped with any expensive arrangements made at the destination for instance Disney tickets etc unless they were part of the package. Accommodation adjustments yes, although IME I've always found it easy to rearrange accommodation for a variety of reasons, including flight connections missed, flight changes, destination being snowed in etc. Hotels have IME been very good with this, I've had "non refundable/changeable" accommodation changed with no charge/cancelled with refund a few times.

Agreed, package protection only applies to its constituent parts, but these can include park tickets, as most Disney packages will.

zagfles said:

On your last point about the ability to self-rebook and reclaim, this isn't guaranteed to succeed, in that the regulations aren't written with that in mind, and so, as above, it leaves the passenger exposed if the airline challenges the cost of the revised arrangements.

I get the impression that the airline usually wants you to sort it yourself so they don't have to. It's probably better for the traveller too, last time it happened in the Caribbean where my flight was delayed a day, we were staying in a beautiful area on the other side of the island from the airport, I just asked the hotel if I could stay another night and the car hire company if I could have an extra day, and claimed that plus meals etc. If they'd arranged it we'd have probably been put up in some boring airport hotel, the airport being in a grotty unsafe area with nothing to do around it. 

It's only happened once to me where the airline have arranged the accommodation and provided meal vouchers etc, that was a missed connection so they put me up in an airport hotel. 

It seems to me that many travellers, especially experienced ones, are more than happy to take care of changing plans themselves, and in many (but not all) cases airlines will be happy to reimburse reasonable costs.  However, there are also plenty of other travellers who either don't feel able or willing to cope with this, and simply expect the airline to stick to the letter of the law, which is an equally valid point of view.

zagfles

eskbanker said:

Agreed, package protection only applies to its constituent parts, but these can include park tickets, as most Disney packages will.

Having seen the prices of some of those packages you're certainly paying for that protection!!

It seems to me that many travellers, especially experienced ones, are more than happy to take care of changing plans themselves, and in many (but not all) cases airlines will be happy to reimburse reasonable costs.  However, there are also plenty of other travellers who either don't feel able or willing to cope with this, and simply expect the airline to stick to the letter of the law, which is an equally valid point of view.

But the point was that even if they don't, there's the option to sort it yourself and claim. People seem to be scared of booking packages because of supposed lack of protection, but that protection is there, just like with packages, except as you said above the advantage of packages is cover the other linked stuff like accommodation. There seem to be plenty of package companies that get an equally bad rap for not fulfilling their obligations as airlines, just look at the first page on this board, there are at least 4!

eskbanker

zagfles said:

It seems to me that many travellers, especially experienced ones, are more than happy to take care of changing plans themselves, and in many (but not all) cases airlines will be happy to reimburse reasonable costs.  However, there are also plenty of other travellers who either don't feel able or willing to cope with this, and simply expect the airline to stick to the letter of the law, which is an equally valid point of view.

But the point was that even if they don't, there's the option to sort it yourself and claim.

My point is that the regulations oblige airlines to offer accommodation, meals and replacement flights, but there's no unilateral legal right for passengers to take matters into their own hands and then claim the costs back - obviously in many cases this will be a pragmatic thing to do, and most of the time airlines, especially more reputable ones, will reimburse, but in the event of disputes it leaves the passenger exposed to the risk of failing to secure some or all of their money back, especially if they fail to discuss options with the airline first, as seen on these boards.

zagfles said:
People seem to be scared of booking packages because of supposed lack of protection, but that protection is there, just like with packages, except as you said above the advantage of packages is cover the other linked stuff like accommodation. There seem to be plenty of package companies that get an equally bad rap for not fulfilling their obligations as airlines, just look at the first page on this board, there are at least 4!

I presume that your first reference to 'packages' should be 'DIY', as otherwise you're comparing packages with packages?  And yes, there are plenty of package providers who let their customers down in many ways, especially the 'bucket shop' online travel agents, so it's undoubtedly more nuanced than 'package good, DIY bad' (or the other way round for that matter!).