UC and if you go over 16k?

kaMelo

You don't count any income received in an AP as capital for that AP. Unspent income becomes capital in the following AP to which it was received.

In short, on the last day of your AP total up everything you have, savings, investments, premium bonds etc. Then deduct from that all the income received in that AP, salary/wages, benefits, pensions etc.

What is left is your total capital to declare, some of which you may be able to claim a disregard for such as CoL payments.

blackstar

Thanks Kamelo,

So basically as an example, and a likely scenario.

Last day of our AP is 28th of every month.

June 28th 2025. 

Dear UC,

The total amount as of today's date 28th June 2025 (last day of our AP) we have a total of 19k in our bank accounts, savings and premium bonds. £1,550 is already disregarded off this amount as its the total of COL payments. 

During this AP 29th May - 28th June we received in benefits the following:

29th May 2025 My wife's earnings £2,000

5th May ESA Contribution Based £500

15th May DLA £1,000

28th June 2025 My wife's monthiy (not 4 weekly) earnings (double payment) £2,000

Total earnings/benefits = £5,500

The total amount of savings/capital as of today's date is a total of £10,950 (- £5,500 of income, benefits and both my wife's double earnings within same AP of which one of them you will allocate to the next month AP. And minus the COL payments of £1,550)

Total capital after earnings, income, benefits and COL payments is

£10,950. Please use this figure as our total capital and savings for UC purposes."

How about doing that? Is that correct? 

Also 2nd seperate question below

PS on a seperate note when we switched to UC from TC we didn't understand about any of this. So we did the online application and it ask for all our bank account amount etc which is completed. It didn't ask us to deduct my wife's earnings or benefits we received that month.
We then were ask to goto JC and had to bring in ALL savings and bank account statements etc etc. They then themselves went away and added then up and came to a figure and said oo we have decided you have 18k amount are you have with this. I said OK that seems about right. 
They then applied the 12 month capital protection. 
However it's just occurred to me if they had taken off my wife's income and benefits and COL for that month we would have been down to about 12k or 13k. Hence we have been since paying the £4.35 for every £250 right up to 16k which we shouldn't have been. I doubt we will have ever gone over 16k in savings since we switched over to UK. Maybe one or 2 months possibly. But our bank accounts have pretty much stayed the same since switching. 
Thoughts?

kaMelo

blackstar said:

Thanks Kamelo,

So basically as an example, and a likely scenario.

Last day of our AP is 28th of every month.

June 28th 2025. 

Dear UC,

The total amount as of today's date 28th June 2025 (last day of our AP) we have a total of 19k in our bank accounts, savings and premium bonds. £1,550 is already disregarded off this amount as its the total of COL payments. 

During this AP 29th May - 28th June we received in benefits the following:

29th May 2025 My wife's earnings £2,000

5th May ESA Contribution Based £500

15th May DLA £1,000

28th June 2025 My wife's monthiy (not 4 weekly) earnings (double payment) £2,000

Total earnings/benefits = £5,500

The total amount of savings/capital as of today's date is a total of £10,950 (- £5,500 of income, benefits and both my wife's double earnings within same AP of which one of them you will allocate to the next month AP. And minus the COL payments of £1,550)

Total capital after earnings, income, benefits and COL payments is

£10,950. Please use this figure as our total capital and savings for UC purposes."

How about doing that? Is that correct? 

Also 2nd seperate question below

PS on a seperate note when we switched to UC from TC we didn't understand about any of this. So we did the online application and it ask for all our bank account amount etc which is completed. It didn't ask us to deduct my wife's earnings or benefits we received that month.
We then were ask to goto JC and had to bring in ALL savings and bank account statements etc etc. They then themselves went away and added then up and came to a figure and said oo we have decided you have 18k amount are you have with this. I said OK that seems about right. 
They then applied the 12 month capital protection. 
However it's just occurred to me if they had taken off my wife's income and benefits and COL for that month we would have been down to about 12k or 13k. Hence we have been since paying the £4.35 for every £250 right up to 16k which we shouldn't have been. I doubt we will have ever gone over 16k in savings since we switched over to UK. Maybe one or 2 months possibly. But our bank accounts have pretty much stayed the same since switching. 
Thoughts?

Well, I know it's an example but your figures don't add up. From what you've said;

Total amount of capital in everything at end of AP   £19,000
Total amount of income in that AP                           £5,500
Total capital to declare                                              £13,500
Also claim a capital disregard for a further £1550 due to CoL payments received.

Your deductions for capital held should therefore be based upon £11950,  (£104.40)

Yamor

blackstar said:

Also 2nd seperate question below

PS on a seperate note when we switched to UC from TC we didn't understand about any of this. So we did the online application and it ask for all our bank account amount etc which is completed. It didn't ask us to deduct my wife's earnings or benefits we received that month.
We then were ask to goto JC and had to bring in ALL savings and bank account statements etc etc. They then themselves went away and added then up and came to a figure and said oo we have decided you have 18k amount are you have with this. I said OK that seems about right. 
They then applied the 12 month capital protection. 
However it's just occurred to me if they had taken off my wife's income and benefits and COL for that month we would have been down to about 12k or 13k. Hence we have been since paying the £4.35 for every £250 right up to 16k which we shouldn't have been. I doubt we will have ever gone over 16k in savings since we switched over to UK. Maybe one or 2 months possibly. But our bank accounts have pretty much stayed the same since switching. 
Thoughts?

Do you also get a Transitional Element each month?

If yes, then depending on the amount of the element, you probably haven't actually lost out. And if you can get them to accept that your capital is lower going forwards, then you would actually gain, as they would stop deducting for the capital, but would not reduce the transitional element.

If not, then you have been underpaid, and you may wish to request an MR/appeal on the decisions for each AP to date.
This will also be the case if the transitional element is small enough that it doesn't make up for the deduction for capital, or if it has since eroded and no longer makes up for the deduction.

jadex

blackstar said:

(...)

The total amount of savings/capital as of today's date is a total of £10,950 (- £5,500 of income, benefits and both my wife's double earnings within same AP of which one of them you will allocate to the next month AP. And minus the COL payments of £1,550)

Total capital after earnings, income, benefits and COL payments is

£10,950. Please use this figure as our total capital and savings for UC purposes."

How about doing that? Is that correct? 

Have you actually done a capital update via your account?
Because from experience, it doesn't work like this.
You open relevant update form from Report a Change menu and it then asks you how many bank accounts do you have, how many savings accounts, how many ISAs, and Premium Bonds and ask you about current balances in all of them.
And when you are invited for a Verify Capital meeting in JC with ALL your statements (and you will be, trust me...) then they will check if the balances are the same as you have provided in the form.
The last question in the form is if any funds should be disregarded, you tick Welfare Payments and type in what you believe should be disregarded. Then you click submit (take screenshots as you go from section to section because you won't be able to check back) and straight away within a seconds you will be shown a number stating what your capital is. Period.
There is no way to tell them about wages, salaries, etc. received within this AP.
Whether Welfare Payments should also include recent UC payment, I don't know - we only added COLs there as our UC is spent on rent the same day as it lands in the bank account anyway. You may probably bundle your COLs here with your ESA and DLA?

Also, another note, you might have forgotten about one-off £500 from March-April 2021 for people on TC (those on UC got £20 weekly uplift for 18 months, so roughly about a grand more). HMRC C19 support on bank statement.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-one-off-500-payment-for-working-households-receiving-tax-credits

And a final note which is now irrelevant as you can't do anything about it, but you have not started your claim strategically. I vaguely remember that when lockdown started and MSE introduced a special c19 board it was a sort of manual there how and when to claim UC. This manual is no longer to be found anywhere but IIRC it advised to start claim as far away as possible from your payday to avoid having issue with getting 2 pays or none at all within your AP.

blackstar

Thank you all for your help. 
We have now paid off some debt and went onto the change of circumstances and bank details etc. We then put down all our monies we currently have without making any deductions to disregarded capital. 
It then as Jadex said came up with a figure of our total capital. And that was submitted.

We then wrote in the journal under payments that the capital should be £.... amount and this is the capital figure that should be used as this is the figure after disregarded capital has been deducted from the figure that was submitted. 

They then wrote back and said

"Thank you for your message. I can see that you have declared these changes to your capital. You do not currently need to do anything further.
Any money paid from other benefits is not taken into account, and you do not need to add this to your capital.
You will receive a journal message if we need any more information from you."

So it doesn't sound like they are going to change the figure to the lower figure. So what should I do? I can see the higher figure without the disregarded capital on our UC account. What should we do now.? I did follow your advice about looking under welfare payments etc but could see where we could add notes etc? Or where we would add about income in this AP?

Should we

A) go back in and do another updated capital amount but with all the disregarded capital taken off? Ie COL payments, income etc received so far in this AP etc? Then write a note on the journal saying this is the amount after deductions from these disregarded capital. 

 B ) Try and ask for a case manager or someone else to make the nessecary disregarded capital deductions? Or something else?

Please any advice on what we should do now? Or how to undo anything we have done wrong?

Also the about one-off c19 £500 support hmrc capital for universal credits is this also indefinitely disregarded as capital and if so is there any legislation to back that up like the cost of living payments.?

Thanks all so much?

huckster

Universal cannot change the capital amount. You need to report amounts with disregards you think apply.

HillStreetBlues

My monies atm is £11.5k  with everything deducted (income, CoL & backpayment) capital is equal to £5.5k, I would declare £5.5 as capital as that is what it is. I don't bother updating my capital as it's always under £6k.
When I had my UC review had about £9k in monies as hadn't received the backpayment, nothing was said about it.
 

Spoonie_Turtle

jadex said:

blackstar said:

(...)

The total amount of savings/capital as of today's date is a total of £10,950 (- £5,500 of income, benefits and both my wife's double earnings within same AP of which one of them you will allocate to the next month AP. And minus the COL payments of £1,550)

Total capital after earnings, income, benefits and COL payments is

£10,950. Please use this figure as our total capital and savings for UC purposes."

How about doing that? Is that correct? 

Also, another note, you might have forgotten about one-off £500 from March-April 2021 for people on TC (those on UC got £20 weekly uplift for 18 months, so roughly about a grand more). HMRC C19 support on bank statement.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-one-off-500-payment-for-working-households-receiving-tax-credits

[Just for the sake of accuracy, Tax Credits had a £20/week uplift for the first year too, then a £500 payment to cover the remaining 6 months because it was simpler than trying to use one rate for half the year and another for the rest when calculating an annual award as TC is.]

The link says the payment will not affect people's benefits but I can't actually find any legislation for it - I don't know if there was any and I'm just not searching the right terms.  I only found a Direction https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/treasury-direction-made-under-section-76-of-the-coronavirus-act-2020/the-coronavirus-act-2020-functions-of-her-majestys-revenue-and-customs-covid-19-support-scheme-working-households-receiving-tax-credits-direction …

Oh actually, maybe it's this, with the same terms as the Direction:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2021/26/part/1/crossheading/coronavirus-support-payments-etc

31 Covid-19 support scheme: working households receiving tax credits

(1)This section applies to a payment which—

(a)is made by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs in the exercise of a function which they have as a result of a direction given by the Treasury under section 76 of the Coronavirus Act 2020, and

(b)is made to a person by reason of the person's receipt of any tax credit specified in the direction on a date so specified.

(2)No liability to income tax arises in respect of a payment to which this section applies.

(3)But subsection (2) does not prevent the application of paragraph 8 of Schedule 16 to FA 2020 (charge to income tax where person not entitled to coronavirus support payment) in relation to a payment to which this section applies.

So it says it's not taxable (which if I understand correctly means it wouldn't affect Tax Credits) but isn't explicitly excluded from counting for means-tested benefits.  Which would make sense if that is the case, as anything unspent from the corresponding UC uplift became capital for claimants.

However it is entirely possible I may have missed some other relevant legislation, so will eagerly defer to anyone knowing more!

blackstar

Thanks all.

We will make the nessecary deductions and update it on the journal this evening.

Am I right in assuming that UC received in this AP is disregarded as savings until the end of the next AP also? As have heard sometimes DWP disregard other benefits but not UC?
Any links appreciated