UC and if you go over 16k?

blackstar

Hi all

Really hoping for some advice. 

We get Universal Credits and we have some very urgent repairs that have to be paid tomorrow or Monday 28th April.

Our assesment period is between 29th and 28th of every month.

We have transitional protection and capital transitional protection until end of Aug 2025.

However, due to these urgent repairs we need to pay out tomorrow Sunday 27th or Monday 28th April we will go below 16k to about 15k. 

We are not bothered about losing the transitional protection at all and don't really want to keep it anyway. Happy actually to get rid of it to be honest. 

So our question is

1) What date is our savings taken into account?

2) Any advice on how best to manage this to avoid any headaches ie maybe better to try and avoid falling under 16k on Monday or Sunday (tomorrow) etc.

3) Is it a particular day that it matters that if we fall under 16k? Or simply at any point at any time on any day, even temporarily we go under 16k?

4) In future what happens if for instance my wife gets paid twice in  the same AP as normally they just move one payment to the next AP BUT if she gets paid twice in the same AP and it takes us over 16k do they see that as our savings have gone over 16k even though they will move it to the next AP? 

5) Do we need to make a new claim when we go under 16k tomorrow or Monday? Or can we just email on journa them tomorrow or Monday and just say our savings today fell below 16k to "15k" please update our UC accordingly? 

6) What if we fall under 16k on Monday and my wife gets paid her salary that same day and we go back over 16k within the same day? 

Really hoping for some advice as these emergency repairs have to be done ASAP. 

Thanks all.

blackstar

Is there any official guidance on this for those who are under 16k but who go over 16k during the AP but at the end of the AP they have spent what they went over and are back under 16k by the end of the AP. The example below doesn't mention someone in the above situation though?
But maybe the same principle applies to someone who temporarily goes over 16k while in the AP but then spends it before end of AP? 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/universal-credit-money-savings-and-investments

"

Income 

Your income is counted as savings if it has not been spent by the end of the assessment period after the one in which it was received. 

Example

Katie’s assessment period for Universal Credit runs from the 8th of the month to the 7th of the next month.
Katie was paid a salary of £2,000 on 1 April. This was within her 8 March to 7 April assessment period.
By the end of her next assessment period (8 April to 7 May), she has spent £1,500 of this income.
For the next assessment period (8 May to 7 June) she should report the saved £500 as part of her savings. 

Tax refunds (known as tax rebates) and National Insurance contribution repayments are counted as income."

Spoonie_Turtle

For straightforward claims (i.e. not migrations with transitional protection to lose) the practical advice is, it doesn't ultimately have any material effect.  *This is not from official guidance, just based on logic:

Technically, if someone goes over £16k in an AP they become ineligible for UC.  So if they report it, their claim should close. 
But when they go back under £16k they can reclaim. 
If that happens within the same AP then reopening the claim will result in the same UC payment as before anyway, exactly as if they'd done nothing at all.  So, it makes no material difference.

On technicalities, when it comes to migrated claims with transitional protection I'm not sure it's that straightforward - but TP is not an area I understand anyway so I won't speculate on the hypothetical scenario.

Yamor

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81405641/#Comment_81405641

huckster

You have an existing thread on this subject.

You don't count wages or benefits received within the savings amount until you still have any of these amounts after the end of the next assessment period end date. I.e. after 28th May.

born_again

huckster said:

You have an existing thread on this subject.

You don't count wages or benefits received within the savings amount until you still have any of these amounts after the end of the next assessment period end date. I.e. after 28th May.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6570173/uc-and-if-you-go-over-16k#latest

peteuk

So our question is

1) What date is our savings taken into account?
Last day of your AP

2) Any advice on how best to manage this to avoid any headaches ie maybe better to try and avoid falling under 16k on Monday or Sunday (tomorrow) etc.
None - youve a bill to pay and the means to pay it.

3) Is it a particular day that it matters that if we fall under 16k? Or simply at any point at any time on any day, even temporarily we go under 16k?
You will loose your TP so gthe next time you go back over £16K you will no longer be entitled to UC. However, the same would apply if you didn’t go under the £16K, at the end of your TP you’ll no longer be entitled to UC. (Unless other circumstances are involved)

4) In future what happens if for instance my wife gets paid twice in  the same AP as normally they just move one payment to the next AP BUT if she gets paid twice in the same AP and it takes us over 16k do they see that as our savings have gone over 16k even though they will move it to the next AP? 
Wages and benefits that enter your account during the AP are disregarded as capital, however your UC will still be deducted by 55p per £1 earnt.

5) Do we need to make a new claim when we go under 16k tomorrow or Monday? Or can we just email on journa them tomorrow or Monday and just say our savings today fell below 16k to "15k" please update our UC accordingly? 
You can not it on your journal, however its just as easy to wait until the last day of your AP and put in a change of circumstance.

6) What if we fall under 16k on Monday and my wife gets paid her salary that same day and we go back over 16k within the same day? 
Doesnt matter because 1) your wife’s income is disregarded as captial during the assessment period 2)you dont declare your capital until the last day of your AP. If that happens to be Monday then so be it it doesnt matter.  You’ll declare the less than £16K

blackstar

Once out of the capital transitional protection for Universal credits these below questions are in relation too.
1) so our assesment period is between 29th and 28th of every month.So the last day of our AP is the 28th of every month? Regardless of if its a Sunday or Monday etc? Correct?


2) So for example during the course of the AP we are below 16k but then wages come in, UC credit comes in, other benefits come in which takes us over 16k. Then by the last day of the AP we are back under 16k after expenses etc are paid then we do not need to declare any changes as there has been no changes in savings being over 16k? Is that correct? (Yes we have already declared savings of £15,500 and getting deductions on those)


3) the same situation as above (2) for example we are at £15,500 and a random gift from a relative comes in for £600 takes us over 16k but again we are still under 16k by the end of the AP as that gift just was spent on general living expenses. Does the same still apply as above (2) no different, even though it was a gift and not benefit/wages that took us over 16k?As I had read that its only savings or wages that are disregarded as capital?

For example we get a gift from my mother for my birthday of £600 and we used it just in general living expenses and that £600 pushed us over 16k but we had spent it before the end of the AP and we were back below 16k to the amount of savings already declared to the DWP by the end of the AP what happens in this situation?Does the DWP still consider us above 16k and that £600 birthday gift now added to our savings even though it's been spent on general living expenses? 

4) on the AP at the end of every month I highly doubt we will always be at exactly the same amount  as the first month we declared our savings as being. For example we declare £15,000. I think most months we will be £250- or + of that. Ie one month we will be £14,600 and next month £15,300. 
So does that mean we need to add our savings up at the end of every AP ie the last day of every AP and if £250 plus or minus of the declared amount UC have then we need to put jn a change of circumstances and end up having to probably go in and show all our bank account statements etc. 

huckster

1) you declare money, savings and investments held on the last day of the assessment period
2) yes it is the actual amount on the last day of the assessment period that is relevant
3) yes no different. 
4) Job Centre may ask for Bank statements etc after new money, savings and investments declarations.

What you are essentially pointing out with your posts, is that this is very murky territory, as to what is being declared and when it is declared.  This is particularly the case for those with money, savings and investments close to £16000.

It would be much easier if you found reason to have household items that need to be replaced and spent some of the savings, to bring these down to a level, where fluctuations close to £16000 were not such an issue.

blackstar

Thanks.

It's very confusing and trying to understand it is very frustrating you are right. You advice is highly appreciated.

One area I have had different answers from is to this question which you have ofcourse already answered and I appreciate jt alot.
This is the answer I have received below on this situation, can I ask if you think this is incorrect? 

Example: I get a gift of £600 during AP which takes us over 16k in savings and we spend it reasonably before the end of the AP. Some are saying what we should do is immediately declare this to UC and tell them look we had £15,500 in capital and savings as already declared and we have now gone over 16k via a birthday gift of £600 and hence our claim for UC will stop.
We will then have to make a new claim once our savings are back under 16k and so long as we have spent our savings reasonably or to pay debt ofcourse.

"All that is about **income**. Again - income is not considered capital in the assessment period it's received.

**Gifts** aren't mentioned there anywhere, because gifts don't fit under 'income' criteria. Gifts are considered capital right away, in the assessment period they are received. 

If you got £600 as a birthday gift and it took you over 16k you would immediately lose your UC and your obligated to report it, even it you spent it reasonably before end of AP.

 If you won't like that decision to end your UC on the above situation - you will be able to request Mandatory Reconsideration, and then, if still unsuccessful - take it to the independent Tribunal."