Does the Switch process apply as normal when moving from copper to full fibre?

Brimble

As my copper-wire broadband contract with TalkTalk ends on 12th December, last week I called them to give my 30 days notice to cancel, thinking maybe they would then offer me a great deal. Yesterday I called TalkTalk again, and couldn't get a good deal, so I initiated via Vodafone's website a switch to their Full Fibre 150. I then got an email from TalkTalk saying "we're delighted you've decided to stay with us" (which I absolutely haven't) so I called them to see what's going on. Two stupid things:
 - The switch request has been cancelled - TalkTalk don't know why, they said I need to speak to Vodafone who need to inform TalkTalk that it needs to go ahead.
 - My original cancellation has also been cancelled, as apparently when you initiate a switch, it cancels any previous orders in relation to your account, so it cancelled my cancellation request (!)

Incidentally, I did mention to TalkTalk that the process for that second bullet point above is very flawed - just getting an email saying "we're delighted you're decided to stay with us" is totally inappropriate and doesn't explain what has happened at all, but hey ho...

I then called Vodafone, who confirmed that at their end the order is still in place, engineers are booked etc, and they have no idea why TalkTalk would consider the switch cancelled.

Does anyone know what's likely to be going on here?
Does the switching process still apply as normal when you change from copper-wire with one company to full fibre with another?
Do I need to get TalkTalk to reinstate my cancellation request, or will the switching process do it?
Am I going to end up in a month's time with 2 concurrently running broadbands, one full fibre and one copper-wire?

Thanks anyone who can help / advise.

iniltous

How are VF proposing to supply service, over the same network as your Talk Talk service, probably Openreach , or over something like City Fibre , and if FTTP is available from Openreach or City Fibre , are they going to use FTTP ( assuming your Talk Talk is on Openreach FTTC ) ?

There is also the new OTS ( one touch switching service ) that providers now use and there is no evidence of that being any good ( the official line , it’s working great , needs to be viewed from the point of view is that they all have a vested interest, so they may be right , they would also lie their ars*s off it weren’t great ) .

You also made a huge error , you don’t serve notice to quit yourself , as that will potentially mess up any attempt to takeover your line , if you want the best retention deal , you pick a provider , start the ball rolling , and then if TT make an offer you accept, you cancel with the new provider, and hopefully it doesn’t get messed up , alternatively you say you are going to leave ( but don’t ) and if their best offer isn’t good enough , you do leave , by telling the new company, you don’t speak to TT yourself after they made their last offer .

As your VF service seems to be progressing anyway , unless you want the safety blanket of getting VF in and working before cancelling TT , you need to get TT to cancel and hope it doesn’t affect the VF order ……TBH , the system isn’t built for you to cancel ( but not really mean it ) hoping for a great retention deal , there is a good chance of having a period with no service if you do that 

Brimble

That's great, thanks for providing such a comprehensive response.

VF are providing the service via Open Reach, I can't find any other info about it, but does that answer your initial question? I was surprised that we could get full fibre where I am, but my neighbour (ours are the only two houses up this little area off the main road) mentioned the other day that he had full fibre installed recently. He said it took them (Open Reach) several months from beginning to end, but perhaps whatever external work was needed is now done so mine will be easier - I sure hope so anyway...

Yes I can see now that I made a mistake in cancelling at the outset. I guess in my mind I wanted to give them the 30 days notice as soon as that became applicable, but I see now that if you switch, it seems the 30 days notice becomes irrelevant, i.e. if you arrange a switch just (say) 2 weeks before your contract end, and the new company can do the switch on the day your contract ends, then your old company accepts that. HOWEVER I don't see how the cancellation requested last week could 'mess up' the switch, as it seems that cancellation has itself been cancelled by me subsequently initiating the switch. With that in mind, my concern with reinstating the cancellation request is that it doesn't (as you said) then somehow mess up the switch and cancel my full fibre installation...

Perhaps there is some further confirmation due to go from VF to TT to confirm that the switch should go ahead... Perhaps I'll wait until Monday then call them both again, see if they are aligned yet...

iniltous

The way a cancellation can mess up a takeover is quite simple ( if it’s on the same underlying network )
An example, you call TT to cancel service ( giving 30 days notice ) , TT enter that order into the Openreach /BTw portal , this is a common ordering portal that all users on Openreach use , there can only be one order active at a time on this portal  …you then approach VF and ask for your TT line to be taken over …VF enter their order onto  the OR /BTw portal , after a short while , the VF order is cancelled ( as the second order it’s not allowed to stand )  ,  it can’t exist until the TT one has completed , only then can a new order  be accepted.

What often happens in these cases , ( so in this example VF ) don’t contact you that their order has been  cancelled , you think things are progressing, the TT order completes ,  you lose service , and expect VF to then kick in , but it doesn’t , you contact  VF , who confirm the VF order was cancelled days earlier , so they raise a new one to take over the now dead TT ‘line’ , and that takes a few days , so that’s the period you have no service from anyone.

Hopefully, because the VF service is over OR FTTP rather than OR FTTC like the Talk Talk service, your VF FTTP isn’t cancelled by the TT cessation, but that’s more luck than management, if the TT cessation has been cancelled , ( presumably by TT themselves rather than any OR/BTw intervention ) , then obviously you will need to cancel it again otherwise you will have two services and two bills , but that may be worth it , incase the VF FTTP ( over OR network ) is  delayed due to construction issues .

Brimble

That is very clear and very helpful, thank you!

I think the best thing I can do is still to give it a couple of days, then contact them both again to see if either side has shifted - it surely can't be the case for very long that VF thinks the switch will go ahead but TT doesn't, surely if I keep checking then they will be able to see whether or not there is a problem won't they? How long could this go on before one party or other realises there is an anomaly?

iniltous

Unfortunately, as I said , the old NOT ( notice of transfer ) system where the BTw/OR portal was used has been replaced by a new system run by some new company TOTSCo.  ( the company that run OTS , one touch switching ) , how this works is a mystery, it’s supposed to handle changes across any network, not just Openreach , so switching on Netomnia, City Fibre , Virgin etc, where NOT was only Openreach .
Are you taking your telephone number with you from TT to VF ? , if you are not , that may be why TT are unaware , ( or say they are unaware ) of your VF order ….plus , because your TT service is on FTTC and the VF service is going to be FTTP , they can coexist at the same time , where if the VF service was going to be also on FTTC then both can’t exist at the same time.

Brimble

I am taking my number with me, although I only chose that because it was the default option, I don't even have a home phone so I don't really care about that. I do hope that hasn't somehow contributed to the confusion though... Either way, TT should definitely be 'aware' as they did confirm on the call yesterday that there WAS a switch initiated, but that it was cancelled (which must have happened pretty much instantaneously, as I got the email saying "we're delighted you've decided to stay" only maybe 10 mins or so after I initiated the switch). They have no idea why it was 'cancelled', saying I need to speak to VF, while meanwhile VF are insistent that the switch has not been cancelled and is due to go ahead.

I did wonder whether the FTTC / FTTP difference might be relevant somehow, hence my original question. Obviously best scenario is that the switch happens, but if it doesn't then I guess next best scenario is come 12th Dec, I end up having both, and then need to cancel the TT one again. If that happens, I will be raising a complaint with them if they try to charge me, as I was very clear with them on the call yesterday that I told them last week to cancel my services on 12th Dec, and if anything that has happened subsequently has changed that then they haven't explained it adequately to me (an email saying "We're delighted you have decided to stay with us" does not explain what has happened at all, and does not tell me what I'm supposed to do about it). As far as I'm concerned (and presumably as far as the law is concerned) I've given them 30 days notice, and have never retracted that, or certainly at least not in any way that layman could be expected to recognise.

Tbh I still feel that the whole process is shambolic. If a switch is cancelled by anything other than the customer saying "I want to cancel my switch" then the relevant parties should identify between them why the switch has auto-cancelled, and notify that clearly to the customer, along with possible courses of action to resolve etc. It's just not very 'customer friendly' at the moment (and 95% of the call centre staff don't have a clue either...)

iniltous

I’d agree it’s pretty useless system, but there has to be a way to cancel , if ( for example ) a pushy salesperson badgered someone into switching , and to get rid of them the consumer said ‘I’ll think about it ‘ , there are plenty of dodgy companies and individuals in the communications businesses that would sign that person up anyway , even though they never agreed…this new OTS may not have the same period of time to cancel a dodgy transfer or even just someone reconsidering, they are apparently wanting same day transfers 

As far as your TT service , even though you did give them notice , the  ‘were delighted you decided to stay ‘ doesn’t bode well for them actually cancelling your TT service, if you can face the prospect of contacting them , you may want to confirm they know you want to leave , wether because of your request directly, or Vodafone serving notice on your behalf ( which now we know you are porting the phone number they should have done  ) 

Brimble

Indeed - I think I will wait until Monday to see if anything has 'aligned', then call them both again... Thanks for your help.

Brimble

So, an update with a new problem... The switch was expected to go ahead today by all parties, but when the Open Reach engineer came, he said they made a mistake on their plans of where my house is, and now need to dig up the road in two places, and will let me know in due course when that will happen, but it might not be until January! Both they and my 'incoming' service provider said that the switch will still happen tonight, meaning that we will presumably be without broadband for a few weeks! What is the best solution?

 - I could ask my 'outgoing' provider to continue my service for another month, but the OR engineer said be wary that this doesn't cancel or amend my order such that the building work is then also automatically cancelled, as it is all automated (!!!) (Crazy overly-automation-reliant process...)
 - We could see if we can cope using mobile hot-spots, perhaps purchasing bigger monthly data packs to help (I believe we will get £6.10 compensation per day for the delay, so that should easily cover such costs).
 - I wonder if we could order a next-day 5g wifi pack, then return it within 30 days under their money-back guarantee? If so, I wouldn't feel bad about doing so, as I genuinely would be interested to try it and see what's it's like, and if it's good, wouldn't be against using it long-term in the future, if circumstances dictate that to be the best soluton at any point.

Any thoughts on those ideas? Any other ideas? 

QrizB

Brimble said:

 - We could see if we can cope using mobile hot-spots, perhaps purchasing bigger monthly data packs to help (I believe we will get £6.10 compensation per day for the delay, so that should easily cover such costs).

I don't know what your mobile co charges for add-on data, but MSE currently list an "unlimited" SIM-only deal for £16/mo on a one-month contract with TalkMobile (uses Vodafone's network). If you've got an old phone you could put that SIM in, it might be a way to provide a home hotspot while your BB is down?

Or you could splash out and buy a whole-house 4G router for the sSIM, something like this (not a recommendation, just the first likely-looking hit when I searched):
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/167067073538