From Zero to £335 - Electric van tax hike in April 2025

Car_54

Jenni_D said:

With the current regime (annual VED) then two people with the same make/model of car will pay the same VED ... one in town doing low mileage would be effectively "subsidising" the one in the country doing high mileage if that VED was considered on a per-mile basis.  

But it's not on per-mile, so the question doesn't arise. 

Jenni_D

I was merely explaining that that poster meant ... Don't shoot the messenger ....  

Ditzy_Mitzy

Personally, I can't see a true pay per mile scheme being anything like viable.  The data protection implications of tracking every single journey made by every single car in the country are enormous, firstly.  Secondly, and more importantly, the administrative burden will be insurmountable.  Armies of people will be needed to check journey data and to issue fines to those who don't pay.  What happens after that?  Surely we don't propose trying to use the courts to prosecute wayward drivers?

An example of the administrative-overload problem in action is London's ULEZ system.  It is becoming increasingly obvious that the ULEZ back office is collapsing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cje3j4y7de9o.  One million fines are presently 'outstanding', i.e. unpaid, according to that article.  

Imagine the ULEZ issue scaled up nationally.  There are 41.2 million licensed vehicles in the UK: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-licensing-statistics-april-to-june-2023/vehicle-licensing-statistics-april-to-june-2023#:~:text=there were 41.2 million licensed,(VEH1103a).  That's a lot.  

The system may well end up in the ULEZ 'vicious circle'.  The more fines that are issued, the more difficult administration of enforcement becomes.  Difficult enforcement leads to lack of enforcement, which then becomes known about and causes liberty taking amongst drivers.  The only remedy for liberty taking is issuing more fines, which then places additional strain on staff and makes enforcement even less likely.  So it goes.  

Goudy

Yes, there are faults and failures with a scheme that charges for entering a zone or area.
These sort of schemes need to know where and when you are.

The basis of any road pricing scheme only needs to know how many miles you are doing and charges you for that.
In it's simplest form, no one needs to know where or when, just how many miles you are doing.

It's already been discussed but NZ have what they call a Road User Charge, you buy blocks of mileages before you use the road and top them up as and when needed.

born_again

Goudy said:

Yes, there are faults and failures with a scheme that charges for entering a zone or area.
These sort of schemes need to know where and when you are.

The basis of any road pricing scheme only needs to know how many miles you are doing and charges you for that.
In it's simplest form, no one needs to know where or when, just how many miles you are doing.

It's already been discussed but NZ have what they call a Road User Charge, you buy blocks of mileages before you use the road and top them up as and when needed.

That does seem one of the better idea's. The issue is going to be enforcement. Lets face it we can't enforce the simple VED now. 

NZ has about 4.5 million cars. A hell of a lot more than we do.

One reason PBM, is better based on the tax of fuel source, as you can't avoid filling or charging your vehicle. Problem is how to do it on EV charging?
Unless you have separate meters for car charging & house use. Again drops in to a massive spend for Government to implement on not only meters & wiring. But also IT systems to run it.
Not forgetting anyone with Solar or batteries to make life even harder...

Simple get round, have a portable battery charging overnight on cheap & charge car from that.

Grumpy_chap

born_again said:

NZ has about 4.5 million cars. A hell of a lot more than we do.

Apparently not far off 34 million cars in UK:
https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility#a1

Nebulous2

Grumpy_chap said:

born_again said:

NZ has about 4.5 million cars. A hell of a lot more than we do.

Apparently not far off 34 million cars in UK:
https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility#a1

I think born again meant less.  

It only applies to diesel cars in NZ as well, so substantially less than the 4.5 million. I'm sure I read somewhere that NZ has one of the highest cars per capita rates in the world. 

Castle

Goudy said:

Yes, there are faults and failures with a scheme that charges for entering a zone or area.
These sort of schemes need to know where and when you are.

The basis of any road pricing scheme only needs to know how many miles you are doing and charges you for that.
In it's simplest form, no one needs to know where or when, just how many miles you are doing.

It's already been discussed but NZ have what they call a Road User Charge, you buy blocks of mileages before you use the road and top them up as and when needed.

Maybe a "black box" fitted into every vehicle, just like those used by insurance companies.

Goudy

Enforcement of anything is always tricky.
People get off scot free robbing post offices (we just didn't expect it to be the Post Office themselves!)
So a totally fool proof system is always going to be a long shot no matter what system it is.

With a similar system to NZ, mileages can be checked and recorded manually at MOT and changes of registered  keeper and of course there could be as with NZ, an electronic transmitter.
This wouldn't need to do anything other than upload the miles driven.
Not an impossible task as things are at the moment. My Google account tracks my phone and records my walking, cycling, driving etc.(roughly, I'm sure I walk and cycle more than it says!)
It could be connect the PCM to GPS and GPRS to verify each recordings and upload.

There are always going to be loop holes and people trying to con the system that need attention, but that happens now. It's not unheard of for some diesel drivers to use Red diesel as it only has around 11p tax on it per litre. so the system of fuel duty we have now isn't perfect.

Someone somewhere will try and beat it, that's a certainty but the less chance and big penalties would discourage the majority.