From Zero to £335 - Electric van tax hike in April 2025

Arunmor

WellKnownSid said:

Goudy said:

Revenue from fuel duty is was around £25 billion last year and is falling from it's peak in around 2017/18 of around £28 billion and it's expected to continue to drop as the years roll on.

The oil and gas industry in the UK employs around 280,000 people - directly and indirectly.  How much national insurance, income tax, and contribution to the economy does that make from the payroll alone?

The big irony is that to refine a litre of petrol or diesel takes electricity - enough electricity to push an electric vehicle along the road between 15-25 miles.  What we effectively have is a big Ponzi scheme which produces an intermediate product which is completely superseded using technology which is available right now, today, but the continued production and distribution of which contributes a great deal to the economy.

Change is coming!

Aye right!

WellKnownSid

Nobbie1967 said:

WellKnownSid said:

Goudy said:

Revenue from fuel duty is was around £25 billion last year and is falling from it's peak in around 2017/18 of around £28 billion and it's expected to continue to drop as the years roll on.

The big irony is that to refine a litre of petrol or diesel takes electricity - enough electricity to push an electric vehicle along the road between 15-25 miles.

You’ll need to show your working on that outlandish claim.

Grangemouth produces about 7 billion litres of fuel a year and has its own power station generating a maximum of 145MW. Do the maths and it works out to about 0.2kWh/litre or enough to move an EV less than a mile.

Well to wheel.  Extraction and distribution isn't free.  I totally accept that the figures vary massively e.g. most of UK is close-to-shore where the oil only needs pumping 12 miles vs 200+ miles in other parts of the world but most accepted total cost well to wheel (plus the consumption of all of the supporting services and businesses that go with it) equates to a not-unreasonable 4-6kWh of electricity.

I also accept that it's far more nuanced - there are plenty of intermediate products which also get produced alongside road fuels which have significant value and distort that figure.  But it's still a very useful figure to think about.  Ditto I'm not saying that fossil fuels haven't been the saviour of the human race for past century or so - we wouldn't be where we are today without fossil fuels...

born_again

Jenni_D said:

How do you monitor mileage in terms of pay-per-mile?

• What about people who take their cars to Europe and add mileage there? They're likely already paying to use the roads in those EU countries - why should they pay again for those miles that haven't been driven in the UK?

It's not an easy thing to implement ... that's why they've used fuel tax all this time.

Well the same as now.. Do you get a refund of VED while out of UK?

Nice to see others have now worked out that PBM is not going to be a cheap or easy task to implement. As the only true way is like London & ANPR picking up your car & monitoring usage. Only on a much larger scale & getting software created that can work out from this just haw many miles driven & then billing.

Jenni_D

born_again said:

Jenni_D said:

How do you monitor mileage in terms of pay-per-mile?

• What about people who take their cars to Europe and add mileage there? They're likely already paying to use the roads in those EU countries - why should they pay again for those miles that haven't been driven in the UK?

It's not an easy thing to implement ... that's why they've used fuel tax all this time.

Well the same as now.. Do you get a refund of VED while out of UK?

As you part-quoted mine, I'll do likewise.

Pay per mile changes the paradigm ... currently you pay a fixed amount regardless of mileage; PPM means you pay based on actual mileage used. I can see people causing a stink if they have to pay the UK Gov for mileage not "consumed" in the UK, especially if it is significant mileage.

But yes - PPM is not something that's easy to adopt without the right infrastructure in place; something that may take quite some time in revenue for which to recover the expenditure.

Nobbie1967

WellKnownSid said:

Nobbie1967 said:

WellKnownSid said:

Goudy said:

Revenue from fuel duty is was around £25 billion last year and is falling from it's peak in around 2017/18 of around £28 billion and it's expected to continue to drop as the years roll on.

The big irony is that to refine a litre of petrol or diesel takes electricity - enough electricity to push an electric vehicle along the road between 15-25 miles.

You’ll need to show your working on that outlandish claim.

Grangemouth produces about 7 billion litres of fuel a year and has its own power station generating a maximum of 145MW. Do the maths and it works out to about 0.2kWh/litre or enough to move an EV less than a mile.

Well to wheel.  Extraction and distribution isn't free.  I totally accept that the figures vary massively e.g. most of UK is close-to-shore where the oil only needs pumping 12 miles vs 200+ miles in other parts of the world but most accepted total cost well to wheel (plus the consumption of all of the supporting services and businesses that go with it) equates to a not-unreasonable 4-6kWh of electricity.

I also accept that it's far more nuanced - there are plenty of intermediate products which also get produced alongside road fuels which have significant value and distort that figure.  But it's still a very useful figure to think about.  Ditto I'm not saying that fossil fuels haven't been the saviour of the human race for past century or so - we wouldn't be where we are today without fossil fuels...

You said it took that to refine it, now you’re adding new figures which look pretty made up to me like your last ones. Bottom line is that the resources used to extract and process oil products is reflected in the pre tax price. 4-6kWh of electricity costs between 95p and 145p per litre which shows the figure is nonsense when the pretax price of petrol is about 60-70p/litre.

mikrt

nottsphil said:

Respondents keep stating how much cheaper electric vehicles are to run without mentioning the decreasing longevity of the batteries. Factor in replacements and you'll get the true cost per mile. And then there's the larger capital outlay for EVs....

Batteries, Factor in replacements?? How often is this required? Annual, 2 yearly, 5 yearly, 10 yearly?

I've searched, but there's very very few that have been changed. And they're to be upgraded or after being damaged. 

It's not like an ICE then whose engines or gearboxes have never needed replacing?

Nebulous2

I've posted before - New Zealand charges for distance on diesel cars, and that seems to work. I'm not an expert, but I think you buy a block of kilometres, and it is checked to make sure you've paid enough at MOT (WOF)   Diesel is much cheaper than petrol, as it isn't taxed to the same extent. 

One issue may well be European travel - it would be much less likely that cars there are doing any travelling outside New Zealand. 

mikrt

The pay per mile isn't fair for us in deepest countryside who need to get to work. 

I'd love to take public transport to commute, but that's not an option so I have to drive 30 miles each way.

For social domestic and pleasure might be fair. 

Nobbie1967

mikrt said:

The pay per mile isn't fair for us in deepest countryside who need to get to work. 

I'd love to take public transport to commute, but that's not an option so I have to drive 30 miles each way.

For social domestic and pleasure might be fair. 

It’ll certainly cost you more, but not sure that it’s particularly unfair given the much greater costs per mile traveled for country roads compared to urban ones. In general, the services for people living in the countryside are subsidised by urban residents. Gas, electricity, post and water are much cheaper to provide to urban communities rather than thinly scattered country dwellers.

Herzlos

Jenni_D said:

How do you monitor mileage in terms of pay-per-mile?

• What about people who take their cars to Europe and add mileage there? They're likely already paying to use the roads in those EU countries - why should they pay again for those miles that haven't been driven in the UK?

Presumably you'd have your mileage logged whilst going through customs or on a ferry?
It's not as if you can drive directly into Europe so likely waiting a while anyway and it only take an extra few seconds to do.

What you'd do on the Irish border I've no idea though. You'd probably need to give them a flat rate tax and charge them a per mile figure for any mileage done in the rest of the UK.