Confused about whether is a boundary wall or nothing of the sort, please help!

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Thank you for the detailed responses OP, sorry to hear you've had what sounds like extensive conversations with them about this and not had anything positive back from them. 

If the land right next to the wall is theirs then I would assume you are looking at legal action to enforce any rights you may have which will be expensive and probably not worth the overall stress. 

A few hundred quid for a solicitor's letter as a bluff might encourage them to do something? 

I agree with ThisIsWeird that you should download the deeds to your neighbours house and see who owns that triangle strip of land, whilst as noted the deeds are a 100% true indication of a boundary it might give a clue as to whether they own it or not.

Not an area I know a lot about but I do wonder if the neighbours would have a claim for adverse possession as they've treated it as their own, it's fenced within their garden and they could probably claim they believed it was their land?

I think it's a very difficult situation with no easy answer sadly. 

Section62

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

....

I agree with ThisIsWeird that you should download the deeds to your neighbours house and see who owns that triangle strip of land, whilst as noted the deeds are a 100% true indication of a boundary it might give a clue as to whether they own it or not.

Not an area I know a lot about but I do wonder if the neighbours would have a claim for adverse possession as they've treated it as their own, it's fenced within their garden and they could probably claim they believed it was their land?

I think it's a very difficult situation with no easy answer sadly. 

Is it fenced within their garden?  If there is a strip of land along the OP's side wall then the legal boundary isn't the house wall, and instead would have been unmarked line through the area where the neighbour now has their flowerbed (AIUI).  Unless there was something in the deeds to the contrary, the OP was not obliged to place a fence on the boundary and has a right to access this land at all times.

I'm not sure the tests for AP would be met in a case like this - which isn't an uncommon situation.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Section62 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

....

I agree with ThisIsWeird that you should download the deeds to your neighbours house and see who owns that triangle strip of land, whilst as noted the deeds are a 100% true indication of a boundary it might give a clue as to whether they own it or not.

Not an area I know a lot about but I do wonder if the neighbours would have a claim for adverse possession as they've treated it as their own, it's fenced within their garden and they could probably claim they believed it was their land?

I think it's a very difficult situation with no easy answer sadly. 

Is it fenced within their garden?  If there is a strip of land along the OP's side wall then the legal boundary isn't the house wall, and instead would have been unmarked line through the area where the neighbour now has their flowerbed (AIUI).  Unless there was something in the deeds to the contrary, the OP was not obliged to place a fence on the boundary and has a right to access this land at all times.

I'm not sure the tests for AP would be met in a case like this - which isn't an uncommon situation.

Thanks, as I say not an area I know much about, I understand the small triangle hasn't been fenced by the neighbour but I don't know what the test is because if the neighbour fenced that small triangle it would be clear they knew it wasn't theirs (because otherwise why would you) but I wondered if that bit of land being apart of the neighbours whole garden which is presumably fenced, or portioned off in some way, would be sufficient for them to claim it as they have clearly been using it as their own for what they claim is a long time?  

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Just to add OP there is a forum called Garden Law where you might get some extra ideas on this:

https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=2318ddd3e1852db30675e66cb6ef9e46

Section62

Jellynailer said:

Misthios said:

Jellynailer said:

I suspect the neighbour may have built the extension without planning permission - check with your local authority or to keep on good terms pretend concern about damp and ask to see their plan.  Also check whether your deeds provide for access for maintenance purposes {mine do).

You are correct and this is what I did. I explained to them that I can't have my house's wall covered in soil and dampness. Why they don't build it on their wall instead?  They refuse to remove the stone/cement raised bed. My deeds provide access the maintenance but since they refuse to remove it so I contacted the council and they replied as follows:

''We can investigate the stone/cement raised flower bed which you refer to, however the investigation will not include whether any damage has been caused to your property or whether any party wall agreement should have been in place as these are a civil matters. What we would look at is whether the works constitute development and if so, whether planning permission is required. If we identify a breach of planning control we will then consider what, if any action, is required. ''.

Am not sure if they will take into account if the neighbour has the right to build on my wall or ask them to remove it but just if the neighbour needed planning permission to build it. It doesn't make sense to me. 

It is not just planning permission required for the extension but also building control  - which works to building regulations including proximity to neighbouring property.  I don’t think it could be deemed to be a permitted development unless it was built more than 10 years ago (because it extends more than 50% of the width of the house and is too close to the road(.  The planners can invite the neighbour to make a retrospective application but then the building control process would then kick in.  Hope this is helpful. 

Planning and Building Control are separate functions - an application for retrospective planning consent wouldn't alter the situation regarding building control, other than possibly alerting BC that work had been done at some date in the past.

The planning application wouldn't cause the building control process to kick in - in other words the applicant doesn't also have to make an application for regularisation for building regs, unless BC decided that enforcement action was necessary.

It isn't clear whether or not the extension would have been permitted development or not. I don't think the 50% width rule has been breached, but the full property history would need to be checked to confirm this.  However, the property is (now) in a conservation area so the extension wouldn't be PD.  There appears to be an approved planning application from 1994 for a kitchen extension, though there are no supporting documents so it isn't possible to say (without checking with the council) whether this side extension is the same thing. 1994 would perhaps be compatible with the OP's December 1993 date for the extension being built.

I don't think there is any mileage in raising the (possible) lack of planning or BR for the extension if it dates from 1993/94.

ThisIsWeird

I don't think the extension is an issue for the OP at all. It's simply that the neighbour is being inconsiderate about how they are treating the OP's house wall.

Regardless of who owns that wee sliver - the neighbour, the OP, or it's communal - the neighbour must not do anything that could be reasonably expected to cause damage to the OP's house, and screwing trellis to it, and building tall planters against it, almost certainly will.

If the OP has LegProt, this should be very simple to sort.

Even in the best case scenario that the sliver is the OP's, it probably wouldn't make sense to actually fence it off, as that would make access to their own wall more difficult. But, wow, it would be nice to 'evict' this inconsiderate neighbour. Or, the OP could access that wee space for a bit of nude exercise.

On the AP issue, would it not be the case that the LR would first have to contact the legal owner to ask "if it's ok for your hellish neighbour to have the land?"

Jellynailer

Hi Misthios

Thank you for your responses with attachments. From these + the help from the other forumites we are close to establishing the relevant facts (that can be proven) from assumptions which are at best circumstantial. The key fact is that you clearly own the sliver of land. I recommend that you:

Send a diy 'Notice Before Action' by recorded delivery stating that you have been advised tp require the removal of the hedge obstruction to your land and to the concrete planter tresspass. Require their agreement to do so within 10 days and then remove the obstructions by a reasonable date (say 6 weeks further on). Include with the letter a copy of your deeds plan which proves your ownership of the obstructed land. Leave out mention of the ivy or ground level detriment to your property but point out that the hedge is obstructing an adopted foot path.  Do not mention court action.  Be polite.  Say you understand that the problems may have arisen before they bought their house but that this does not excuse the continuation of the obstruction by the hedge and the concrete planter.

In the meantime prepare to instruct a solicitor to write to the neighbour on the same lines + give you advice re compensation for detriment and if you can take your own action to remove the obstructions. 

You can keep the solicitors costs to affordable by means of a pre-prepared file containing:

-The deeds plan + copy of this showing neighbour's house e.g. hatched in blue

-The photo of the footpath, extension & hedge + a photo of your sliver of land taken over hedge

- A copy of your surveyor's report in 2022/3

- A chronological briefing file (with evidence) =

1 Completion of the terrace of houses (1993).

2. Date of adoption of the Lane (evidence of this)

3..Date of purchase by your neighbour of their house (evidence = their the land registry title showing when they bought it (instant access online cost only £3)

4. Your surveyor's report from 2022/3

5. Dates of when you raised issues before completion + all correspondence and/or a summary.

6. Full date of your purchase + copies of searches arranged by conveyancer and of any relevant enquiries.

7. Full date of completion

8. Date of agreement for access to remove ivy + all correspondence and/or a summary.

9. Date of going abroad and date you returned an account of what has happened since you returned.

10,  An account of what has happened since including a copy of the letter of Notice Before Action.

N.B Choose a property solicitor who knows property law. The law is based on the 1920 Property Act and then Case Law since then. The Case Law on obstruction is well established = 'substantive' obstruction is unlawful and so actionable. Your solicitor will require your neighbour to appoint a solicitor to respond to your complaint (and demand for compensation if you are entitled). Given the clarity in Case Law, it is most unlikely that it will be necessary to go to court + you do not have to proceed to this stage. [My neighbour's solicitor told their client to settle immediately the neighbour passed the matter to them; my solicitor gave me a discount on fees because I had prepared a clear briefing saving them hours of work and delay]

Phew! I have given my best so hope all is now very very clear

Appearance is no more reality than a sunset is a fire

ThisIsWeird

Jellynailer said:

The key fact is that you clearly own the sliver of land.

Unless I'm missing something, I cannot see how this can be certain.

It'll be interesting to see what this neighbour's deeds map looks like, but I'm concerned that the OP's map does not show a red line to indicate ownership of that strip.

BarelySentientAI

Jellynailer said:

The key fact is that you clearly own the sliver of land.

Boundaries all parallel in the row, with a slant on the boundary to the road at the left.  This is from the actual deeds according to the OP.


Not a deeds plan, just an estate layout drawing, with the markings all added by the OP and of no official relevance.  The red boundary does seem to have been transcribed correctly from the deeds plan based on the comparison with others in the row, and clearly shows that the black line is entirely within the neighbour's property.  No evidence that the house wall is not along the property line.


All walls and fences on property lines are party walls.  Could be interpreted to include the side wall of the house.

I don't read any of this evidence to suggest that the OP owns anything at all beyond the side wall of their house.  You're taking a very bullish position based on evidence that I don't think is there.

I agree that letting things grow on the wall is bad, as is fixing things to it indiscriminately, but I fear you are leading the OP down a potentially expensive and argumentative route based on assumptions at the moment.

Misthios

Jellynailer said:

Hi Misthios

Thank you for your responses with attachments. From these + the help from the other forumites we are close to establishing the relevant facts (that can be proven) from assumptions which are at best circumstantial. The key fact is that you clearly own the sliver of land. I recommend that you:

Send a diy 'Notice Before Action' by recorded delivery stating that you have been advised tp require the removal of the hedge obstruction to your land and to the concrete planter tresspass. Require their agreement to do so within 10 days and then remove the obstructions by a reasonable date (say 6 weeks further on). Include with the letter a copy of your deeds plan which proves your ownership of the obstructed land. Leave out mention of the ivy or ground level detriment to your property but point out that the hedge is obstructing an adopted foot path.  Do not mention court action.  Be polite.  Say you understand that the problems may have arisen before they bought their house but that this does not excuse the continuation of the obstruction by the hedge and the concrete planter.

In the meantime prepare to instruct a solicitor to write to the neighbour on the same lines + give you advice re compensation for detriment and if you can take your own action to remove the obstructions. 

You can keep the solicitors costs to affordable by means of a pre-prepared file containing:

-The deeds plan + copy of this showing neighbour's house e.g. hatched in blue

-The photo of the footpath, extension & hedge + a photo of your sliver of land taken over hedge

- A copy of your surveyor's report in 2022/3

- A chronological briefing file (with evidence) =

1 Completion of the terrace of houses (1993).

2. Date of adoption of the Lane (evidence of this)

3..Date of purchase by your neighbour of their house (evidence = their the land registry title showing when they bought it (instant access online cost only £3)

4. Your surveyor's report from 2022/3

5. Dates of when you raised issues before completion + all correspondence and/or a summary.

6. Full date of your purchase + copies of searches arranged by conveyancer and of any relevant enquiries.

7. Full date of completion

8. Date of agreement for access to remove ivy + all correspondence and/or a summary.

9. Date of going abroad and date you returned an account of what has happened since you returned.

10,  An account of what has happened since including a copy of the letter of Notice Before Action.

N.B Choose a property solicitor who knows property law. The law is based on the 1920 Property Act and then Case Law since then. The Case Law on obstruction is well established = 'substantive' obstruction is unlawful and so actionable. Your solicitor will require your neighbour to appoint a solicitor to respond to your complaint (and demand for compensation if you are entitled). Given the clarity in Case Law, it is most unlikely that it will be necessary to go to court + you do not have to proceed to this stage. [My neighbour's solicitor told their client to settle immediately the neighbour passed the matter to them; my solicitor gave me a discount on fees because I had prepared a clear briefing saving them hours of work and delay]

Phew! I have given my best so hope all is now very very clear

Appearance is no more reality than a sunset is a fire

Thank you so much for everything, you put so much effort in this and I greatly appreciate it. I ll get back to this post with updates asap.