Confused about whether is a boundary wall or nothing of the sort, please help!

Section62

Jellynailer said:

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Send a diy 'Notice Before Action' by recorded delivery stating that you have been advised tp require the removal of the hedge obstruction to your land and to the concrete planter tresspass. Require their agreement to do so within 10 days and then remove the obstructions by a reasonable date (say 6 weeks further on). Include with the letter a copy of your deeds plan which proves your ownership of the obstructed land. Leave out mention of the ivy or ground level detriment to your property but point out that the hedge is obstructing an adopted foot path.  Do not mention court action.  Be polite.  Say you understand that the problems may have arisen before they bought their house but that this does not excuse the continuation of the obstruction by the hedge and the concrete planter.

In the meantime prepare to instruct a solicitor to write to the neighbour on the same lines + give you advice re compensation for detriment and if you can take your own action to remove the obstructions. 

...

OP, be cautious before adopting this sledgehammer/nut approach.  Make sure all the facts are clear before you start turning your relationship with the neighbour into a legal battle. Also, as previously advised, speak to your legal protection people before doing anything dramatic.

In particular you need to clarify whether the land the hedge is growing on/over is in fact (public) highway.  If it is, then enforcement of that is nothing to do with you, save for notifying the highway authority of the obstruction.  A court (if you end up getting that far) is likely to take a less than positive view of someone attempting to use private legal action to address a highway matter unrelated to the issue with the planter.  Frankly the approach suggested by Jellynailer could be seen as an attempt to bully your neighbour and could result in you being placed firmly on the back foot with the court.

Note that "footpath" has a specific meaning in highway law, and according to the council's definitive map the road/path your property fronts is not a footpath.  Don't call it a footpath, otherwise you will complicate things further.

Also note that a "letter before action" is a standard part of the pre-action protocol (for court), so whilst at this stage it would be a very good idea not to mention court action, doing so is somewhat pointless if you have headed the letter 'Notice Before Action'. If you adopt a DIY approach then don't make your correspondence quasi-legal until you know more about what you are doing.

Better still, if you haven't already done so, speak to your legal protection people before doing anything else.

Misthios

ThisIsWeird said:

I don't think the extension is an issue for the OP at all. It's simply that the neighbour is being inconsiderate about how they are treating the OP's house wall.

Regardless of who owns that wee sliver - the neighbour, the OP, or it's communal - the neighbour must not do anything that could be reasonably expected to cause damage to the OP's house, and screwing trellis to it, and building tall planters against it, almost certainly will.

If the OP has LegProt, this should be very simple to sort.

Even in the best case scenario that the sliver is the OP's, it probably wouldn't make sense to actually fence it off, as that would make access to their own wall more difficult. But, wow, it would be nice to 'evict' this inconsiderate neighbour. Or, the OP could access that wee space for a bit of nude exercise.

On the AP issue, would it not be the case that the LR would first have to contact the legal owner to ask "if it's ok for your hellish neighbour to have the land?"

Hey thanks so much for your response. Sure, I don't have the slightest issue if the neighbour wants to built an extension. As long as it give me at least 1 metre space so I can access my wall anytime is required and carry out any works required, I am fine.

As you said, my problem is their attitude and they take actions without consideration.  Yes I have Legal Support & Advice with my home insurance so I am preparing my case to send it over on Monday to them. That sliver of land more likely I would just net it with thin poles because it will give me a good access to the back of the house. 

Not sure if the LR have the power to interfere but yeah certainly it's a Hellish Case indeed.

Misthios

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Section62 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

....

I agree with ThisIsWeird that you should download the deeds to your neighbours house and see who owns that triangle strip of land, whilst as noted the deeds are a 100% true indication of a boundary it might give a clue as to whether they own it or not.

Not an area I know a lot about but I do wonder if the neighbours would have a claim for adverse possession as they've treated it as their own, it's fenced within their garden and they could probably claim they believed it was their land?

I think it's a very difficult situation with no easy answer sadly. 

Is it fenced within their garden?  If there is a strip of land along the OP's side wall then the legal boundary isn't the house wall, and instead would have been unmarked line through the area where the neighbour now has their flowerbed (AIUI).  Unless there was something in the deeds to the contrary, the OP was not obliged to place a fence on the boundary and has a right to access this land at all times.

I'm not sure the tests for AP would be met in a case like this - which isn't an uncommon situation.

Thanks, as I say not an area I know much about, I understand the small triangle hasn't been fenced by the neighbour but I don't know what the test is because if the neighbour fenced that small triangle it would be clear they knew it wasn't theirs (because otherwise why would you) but I wondered if that bit of land being apart of the neighbours whole garden which is presumably fenced, or portioned off in some way, would be sufficient for them to claim it as they have clearly been using it as their own for what they claim is a long time?  

It's not fenced. their fence starts right where my building ends and it finishes at my car park (next to my patio) where it meets the other neighbour's fence. Am on it checking their deeds as well, very good advice thank you. 

Misthios

Misthios said:

Jellynailer said:

Hi Misthios

Thank you for your responses with attachments. From these + the help from the other forumites we are close to establishing the relevant facts (that can be proven) from assumptions which are at best circumstantial. The key fact is that you clearly own the sliver of land. I recommend that you:

Send a diy 'Notice Before Action' by recorded delivery stating that you have been advised tp require the removal of the hedge obstruction to your land and to the concrete planter tresspass. Require their agreement to do so within 10 days and then remove the obstructions by a reasonable date (say 6 weeks further on). Include with the letter a copy of your deeds plan which proves your ownership of the obstructed land. Leave out mention of the ivy or ground level detriment to your property but point out that the hedge is obstructing an adopted foot path.  Do not mention court action.  Be polite.  Say you understand that the problems may have arisen before they bought their house but that this does not excuse the continuation of the obstruction by the hedge and the concrete planter.

In the meantime prepare to instruct a solicitor to write to the neighbour on the same lines + give you advice re compensation for detriment and if you can take your own action to remove the obstructions. 

You can keep the solicitors costs to affordable by means of a pre-prepared file containing:

-The deeds plan + copy of this showing neighbour's house e.g. hatched in blue

-The photo of the footpath, extension & hedge + a photo of your sliver of land taken over hedge

- A copy of your surveyor's report in 2022/3

- A chronological briefing file (with evidence) =

1 Completion of the terrace of houses (1993).

2. Date of adoption of the Lane (evidence of this)

3..Date of purchase by your neighbour of their house (evidence = their the land registry title showing when they bought it (instant access online cost only £3)

4. Your surveyor's report from 2022/3

5. Dates of when you raised issues before completion + all correspondence and/or a summary.

6. Full date of your purchase + copies of searches arranged by conveyancer and of any relevant enquiries.

7. Full date of completion

8. Date of agreement for access to remove ivy + all correspondence and/or a summary.

9. Date of going abroad and date you returned an account of what has happened since you returned.

10,  An account of what has happened since including a copy of the letter of Notice Before Action.

N.B Choose a property solicitor who knows property law. The law is based on the 1920 Property Act and then Case Law since then. The Case Law on obstruction is well established = 'substantive' obstruction is unlawful and so actionable. Your solicitor will require your neighbour to appoint a solicitor to respond to your complaint (and demand for compensation if you are entitled). Given the clarity in Case Law, it is most unlikely that it will be necessary to go to court + you do not have to proceed to this stage. [My neighbour's solicitor told their client to settle immediately the neighbour passed the matter to them; my solicitor gave me a discount on fees because I had prepared a clear briefing saving them hours of work and delay]

Phew! I have given my best so hope all is now very very clear

Appearance is no more reality than a sunset is a fire

Thank you so much for everything, you put so much effort in this and I greatly appreciate it. I ll get back to this post with updates asap.

@ Jellynailer  @ ThisIsWeird @ BarelySentientAI @ the_lunatic_is_in_my_head Ok, the photo to the left is my house

and the house to the right is the neighbour's house. The neighbour's house was last sold in 2006 but apparently it was built earlier than that but we can't confirm it yet. Can't find this information in the title plan. I know my house for sure is built in 1993 and bought it in Feb 2023.

I spoke initially on the phone with a boundaries expert and he said that the plans look very contradictive, it looks like a sliver of land in my title plan but needs to investigate.

I might have to speak to another one just to compare because, to be honest, he sounded a bit confused for an ''expert''.

Any thoughts?

Many thanks again.



 

BarelySentientAI

Those diagrams and photographs all seem to agree - and indicate that the boundary between properties is along the wall of your house.

i.e. there is no sliver or triangle beside it to argue about, that is all the neighbours land.

Section62

ThisIsWeird said:

Jellynailer said:

The key fact is that you clearly own the sliver of land.

Unless I'm missing something, I cannot see how this can be certain.

It'll be interesting to see what this neighbour's deeds map looks like, but I'm concerned that the OP's map does not show a red line to indicate ownership of that strip.

I agree - too much is being taken as proven fact without the legwork having been done to verify what the true position is.

The sliver of land appears to be well within the margin of error for OS mapping, and the concept of 'general boundaries'.

Further research is needed before 'going legal'.

Misthios

The only thing the boundaries guy was certain about was that the neighbour's property is considered neighbouring and not adjoining, my understanding from what he told me, is that they have no right at all to attach anything on my house's side wall. 

Misthios

BarelySentientAI said:

Those diagrams and photographs all seem to agree - and indicate that the boundary between properties is along the wall of your house.

i.e. there is no sliver or triangle beside it to argue about, that is all the neighbours land.

The boundaries guy wasn't sure about it either because he said that could also be an error in the neighbour's title plan.

BarelySentientAI

Misthios said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Those diagrams and photographs all seem to agree - and indicate that the boundary between properties is along the wall of your house.

i.e. there is no sliver or triangle beside it to argue about, that is all the neighbours land.

The boundaries guy wasn't sure about it either because he said that could also be an error in the neighbour's title plan.

An error on their plan that matches an equal and opposite error on yours?  It's certainly possible, particularly if one was sort of copied from the other, but it seems more likely to me that both plans are correct.

Misthios said:

The only thing the boundaries guy was certain about was that the neighbour's property is considered neighbouring and not adjoining, my understanding from what he told me, is that they have no right at all to attach anything on my house's side wall. 

Yeah, I think you need to separate the two things in your head.  I presume the check on 'adjoining' is to match the text you quoted earlier about party walls.

It's not true that a neighbour has no right under any circumstances to attach something on a wall that is the boundary of their plot (otherwise how would anyone in a terrace or semi build an extension?) - but equally they can't just do it willy-nilly.

If that wall is entirely yours, and it seems like it would be given it's the external side wall of your house, then they shouldn't be fixing anything to it as far as I know.

Section62

Misthios said:

Misthios said:

Jellynailer said:

Thank you so much for everything, you put so much effort in this and I greatly appreciate it. I ll get back to this post with updates asap.

@ Jellynailer  @ ThisIsWeird @ BarelySentientAI @ the_lunatic_is_in_my_head Ok, the photo to the left is my house

and the house to the right is the neighbour's house. The neighbour's house was last sold in 2006 but apparently it was built earlier than that but we can't confirm it yet. Can't find this information in the title plan. I know my house for sure is built in 1993 and bought it in Feb 2023.

I spoke initially on the phone with a boundaries expert and he said that the plans look very contradictive, it looks like a sliver of land in my title plan but needs to investigate.

I might have to speak to another one just to compare because, to be honest, he sounded a bit confused for an ''expert''.

....

There has been a building of roughly the same footprint on that parcel of land for around 150+ years, and the style of the property suggests probably mid-Victorian. The existing building has two bricked-up doorways, which is consistent with the terrace of 3 houses shown on the 1902 OS mapping.  Hence I'd say it is almost certain it was built at least 100 years before 2006.

The old OS mapping suggests the land your house was built on was originally part of the same plot as number 17 - so I'd anticipate there may well be things in favour of number 17 if it came to a legal fight between you.