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Invalid Warrant Forced Entry
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TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:molerat said:The warrant clearly states it is to enter the premises, it does not mention the premises rented by, the respondent at the top is pretty much irrelevant. The entry to the premises was perfectly legal and there is no point going down that route. Your beef is with the supplier who gained a warrant of entry over a month after they were aware a new tenant had moved in. Unfortunately with these incompetent energy suppliers the left hand does not talk to the right. You need to raise a complaint with them and take it to the ombudsman if necessary, they will likely give you £200 to go away. The newspapers may also like the story, no mentions of illegal though, just incompetent.
Supplier had an unrecovered debt or concern of tampering etc. and could not gain access, told a 3rd party to obtain warrant and proceed with necessary works/inspections. Now it's off the suppliers list, they have nothing more to do with it. Change of tenant doesn't necessarily overwrite their concerns or previous debt, so would not be an automatic trigger to change the instructions to the 3rd party.
3rd party goes through the legal process, gets warrant, acts on warrant. They do not (and many would say should not) have contact with the tenant, occupant, landlord, homeowner etc. They have no idea if someone has moved out or moved in, and it is essentially irrelevant to them anyway. Only if their instructions changed would they fail to proceed.
Both parts perfectly legal, supported by the Electricity Act and the Licence Conditions. Ombudsman might chuck you a few quid, but there are no massive errors here and you haven't suffered a significant loss that needs to be put right, so no precedent for an award over the usual £50 - £150 "shut up and go away" payment.
The date the warrant was issued is irrelevant. Who happened to be the tenant of the property on the date the warrant was issued is irrelevant. What two different customer service agents have told you (and I notice that they have told you two completely different and contradictory things, but you are treating both as accurate) is irrelevant.
All that has happened is someone at the supplier hasn't manually revoked the instructions to the 3rd party on the change of customer. Whether they should or shouldn't, could or couldn't, might need some debate - and that's what your complaint, if you make one, should be about.
Everything here is legal, regardless of how extraordinary you find it.
You might want there to be a different process, but that isn't how laws are set.
What you have previously said is that the warrant was legitimately asked for and the problem is that it just wasn't cancelled (which might not actually be possible according to some precedents) when they moved out and you moved in.
Speculation here, but it would not be unusual for the application to have been made in July, and something sent to say "you have 8 weeks to respond". You (according to the dates you put up earlier) wouldn't have seen that letter.
When there was no response, the warrant was issued, hence the date on it (after you took over). They don't need to write again to say "you didn't answer, so we've issued a warrant".
They would not "need to go through the process with me and name me in any court order, all afresh"
You are confusing "how I would like warrants to work" and "how warrants actually work".
What's to stop someone just doing that every 6 weeks and avoiding any access.
A random CS agent sympathising with an angry customer on the phone is not very good evidence of what a company should or shouldn't do - hence the 'compensation', which is nothing of the sort, it's a "take this money, shut up and go away" payment.
As for how often something like this happens? Very very rarely. Even when there was a huge investigation into fitting prepayment meters in the last couple of years (which often involves the same warrant process), there were a negligible amount of mistaken identities and address changes. Most of the problems were PPM being used too early in the list of options.2 -
TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:molerat said:The warrant clearly states it is to enter the premises, it does not mention the premises rented by, the respondent at the top is pretty much irrelevant. The entry to the premises was perfectly legal and there is no point going down that route. Your beef is with the supplier who gained a warrant of entry over a month after they were aware a new tenant had moved in. Unfortunately with these incompetent energy suppliers the left hand does not talk to the right. You need to raise a complaint with them and take it to the ombudsman if necessary, they will likely give you £200 to go away. The newspapers may also like the story, no mentions of illegal though, just incompetent.
Supplier had an unrecovered debt or concern of tampering etc. and could not gain access, told a 3rd party to obtain warrant and proceed with necessary works/inspections. Now it's off the suppliers list, they have nothing more to do with it. Change of tenant doesn't necessarily overwrite their concerns or previous debt, so would not be an automatic trigger to change the instructions to the 3rd party.
3rd party goes through the legal process, gets warrant, acts on warrant. They do not (and many would say should not) have contact with the tenant, occupant, landlord, homeowner etc. They have no idea if someone has moved out or moved in, and it is essentially irrelevant to them anyway. Only if their instructions changed would they fail to proceed.
Both parts perfectly legal, supported by the Electricity Act and the Licence Conditions. Ombudsman might chuck you a few quid, but there are no massive errors here and you haven't suffered a significant loss that needs to be put right, so no precedent for an award over the usual £50 - £150 "shut up and go away" payment.
The date the warrant was issued is irrelevant. Who happened to be the tenant of the property on the date the warrant was issued is irrelevant. What two different customer service agents have told you (and I notice that they have told you two completely different and contradictory things, but you are treating both as accurate) is irrelevant.
All that has happened is someone at the supplier hasn't manually revoked the instructions to the 3rd party on the change of customer. Whether they should or shouldn't, could or couldn't, might need some debate - and that's what your complaint, if you make one, should be about.
Everything here is legal, regardless of how extraordinary you find it.
You might want there to be a different process, but that isn't how laws are set.
What you have previously said is that the warrant was legitimately asked for and the problem is that it just wasn't cancelled (which might not actually be possible according to some precedents) when they moved out and you moved in.
Speculation here, but it would not be unusual for the application to have been made in July, and something sent to say "you have 8 weeks to respond". You (according to the dates you put up earlier) wouldn't have seen that letter.
When there was no response, the warrant was issued, hence the date on it (after you took over). They don't need to write again to say "you didn't answer, so we've issued a warrant".
They would not "need to go through the process with me and name me in any court order, all afresh"
You are confusing "how I would like warrants to work" and "how warrants actually work".
What's to stop someone just doing that every 6 weeks and avoiding any access.
It will have cost them a fortune already to obtain a warrant and execute it when they didn't need to and shouldn't have.
I dare say they lost even more money in unrecoverable debt.
They haven't got off scot free in financial terms.
They can't undo what they have done, so I'm not sure what else they can do but apologise, try to make sure it never happens again and offer you some compensation.
It does sound like the people who executed the warrant were reasonably considerate in minimising damage.
I am not sure what other punishment you are seeking?
The real culprits are those who don't pay their bills and/or try to extract energy illegally, without them none of this sort of action would be required.
Sometimes people make mistakes, that is what makes us human.
The only thing you can do when you make a mistake is apologise and put right what you have done wrong as far as possible.0 -
bagand96 said:I think we've gotten too used to these irregularities - it shouldn't happen and the energy suppliers say it shouldn't happen. Hence they offer compensation, putting it all down to clerical or human error.0
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I think they will be concerned, they will have lost way more than £100
And that £100 is probably more profit than they make in supplying you with energy in a year.
What other repercussion do you want, people to lose their jobs, prosecution, the company to stop trading?
What punishment do you feel that a staff member at an energy company deserves for making a mistake?1 -
TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:bagand96 said:I think we've gotten too used to these irregularities - it shouldn't happen and the energy suppliers say it shouldn't happen. Hence they offer compensation, putting it all down to clerical or human error.
You are starting to lose any sympathy now as you are turning this into a conspiracy.
Warrants are required for those who don't pay bills(to change them to pre payment) and less so tampering but are a required tool. Without which all our energy bills go up more.1 -
BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:BarelySentientAI said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:molerat said:The warrant clearly states it is to enter the premises, it does not mention the premises rented by, the respondent at the top is pretty much irrelevant. The entry to the premises was perfectly legal and there is no point going down that route. Your beef is with the supplier who gained a warrant of entry over a month after they were aware a new tenant had moved in. Unfortunately with these incompetent energy suppliers the left hand does not talk to the right. You need to raise a complaint with them and take it to the ombudsman if necessary, they will likely give you £200 to go away. The newspapers may also like the story, no mentions of illegal though, just incompetent.
Supplier had an unrecovered debt or concern of tampering etc. and could not gain access, told a 3rd party to obtain warrant and proceed with necessary works/inspections. Now it's off the suppliers list, they have nothing more to do with it. Change of tenant doesn't necessarily overwrite their concerns or previous debt, so would not be an automatic trigger to change the instructions to the 3rd party.
3rd party goes through the legal process, gets warrant, acts on warrant. They do not (and many would say should not) have contact with the tenant, occupant, landlord, homeowner etc. They have no idea if someone has moved out or moved in, and it is essentially irrelevant to them anyway. Only if their instructions changed would they fail to proceed.
Both parts perfectly legal, supported by the Electricity Act and the Licence Conditions. Ombudsman might chuck you a few quid, but there are no massive errors here and you haven't suffered a significant loss that needs to be put right, so no precedent for an award over the usual £50 - £150 "shut up and go away" payment.
The date the warrant was issued is irrelevant. Who happened to be the tenant of the property on the date the warrant was issued is irrelevant. What two different customer service agents have told you (and I notice that they have told you two completely different and contradictory things, but you are treating both as accurate) is irrelevant.
All that has happened is someone at the supplier hasn't manually revoked the instructions to the 3rd party on the change of customer. Whether they should or shouldn't, could or couldn't, might need some debate - and that's what your complaint, if you make one, should be about.
Everything here is legal, regardless of how extraordinary you find it.
You might want there to be a different process, but that isn't how laws are set.
What you have previously said is that the warrant was legitimately asked for and the problem is that it just wasn't cancelled (which might not actually be possible according to some precedents) when they moved out and you moved in.
Speculation here, but it would not be unusual for the application to have been made in July, and something sent to say "you have 8 weeks to respond". You (according to the dates you put up earlier) wouldn't have seen that letter.
When there was no response, the warrant was issued, hence the date on it (after you took over). They don't need to write again to say "you didn't answer, so we've issued a warrant".
They would not "need to go through the process with me and name me in any court order, all afresh"
You are confusing "how I would like warrants to work" and "how warrants actually work".
What's to stop someone just doing that every 6 weeks and avoiding any access.
A random CS agent sympathising with an angry customer on the phone is not very good evidence of what a company should or shouldn't do - hence the 'compensation', which is nothing of the sort, it's a "take this money, shut up and go away" payment.
As for how often something like this happens? Very very rarely. Even when there was a huge investigation into fitting prepayment meters in the last couple of years (which often involves the same warrant process), there were a negligible amount of mistaken identities and address changes. Most of the problems were PPM being used too early in the list of options.0 -
matt_drummer said:I think they will be concerned, they will have lost way more than £100
And that £100 is probably more profit than they make in supplying you with energy in a year.
What other repercussion do you want, people to lose their jobs, prosecution, the company to stop trading?
What punishment do you feel that a staff member at an energy company deserves for making a mistake?0 -
From a legal point of view.
Compensation is intended to put you back in the position you would have been in had the error not occurred.
Punitive damages are an amount awarded by a court on top of compensation as form of punishment for negligence or intentional wrong doing.
Any compensation awarded will be small as no damage was caused.
To be awarded punitive damages you would have to prove in a court negligence or intentional wrong doing.
The Judge that granted the warrant was not negligent and neither were those who executed the warrant, they did as instructed.
As to whether the energy company was negligent is another matter, an employee making a mistake is not necessarily negligent, just a fact of life.
You would have to prove that the energy company did not follow industry standards in how they deal with matters such as these.0 -
TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:matt_drummer said:I think they will be concerned, they will have lost way more than £100
And that £100 is probably more profit than they make in supplying you with energy in a year.
What other repercussion do you want, people to lose their jobs, prosecution, the company to stop trading?
What punishment do you feel that a staff member at an energy company deserves for making a mistake?
They have followed the law, they had a warrant.
What they haven't done is checked that it was still necessary for the warrant to be executed before it was.
Maybe they should have, or could have, but maybe they are not actually required to and therefore they won't have been negligent.
Maybe the process has to be changed but that may come in the way of instruction from the regulator.
As far as your event goes, it is too late.
What do you want them to do for you that they haven't already done?
They have apologised, admitted their mistake, and offered you compensation in excess of any damage caused.
Do you want anything else from them?
I am sure that the staff you speak to are genuinely sorry and wish it hadn't happened, I'm sure most people would feel like this.
But you need to move on from that and say what more you want from them.
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matt_drummer said:From a legal point of view.
Compensation is intended to put you back in the position you would have been in had the error not occurred.
Punitive damages are an amount awarded by a court on top of compensation as form of punishment for negligence or intentional wrong doing.
Any compensation awarded will be small as no damage was caused.
To be awarded punitive damages you would have to prove in a court negligence or intentional wrong doing.
The Judge that granted the warrant was not negligent and neither were those who executed the warrant, they did as instructed.
As to whether the energy company was negligent is another matter, an employee making a mistake is not necessarily negligent, just a fact of life.
You would have to prove that the energy company did not follow industry standards in how they deal with matters such as these.0
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