Dismissed from job 3 years ago, no references, not sure where to start to get a job

Marcon

OP - if you read through this thread, you might grasp why people are so frustrated, and why so many of us are drawing the conclusion that you are actually putting (largely imaginary) barriers in your own way.

Have you considered the possibility that you don't actually need HR advice as your moniker suggests, but perhaps some medical support to deal with problems which are maybe more of a challenge then you feel able to admit, even to yourself?

NeedSomeHRadvice

LinLui said:

There's "some form of NDA clause"? What does that mean? Exactly. Not the rough,  roundabout, something or other, skirting around the truth / issue of the last 4 pages. I'm sorry,  but you are drip feeding facts to people who (a) don't really care about your history,  and (b) are trying to help you.

You got bullied,  left under a settlement agreement. You moved to a job you stayed in for very little time but somehow still managed to find cause to sue the employer and yet again let under a settlement agreement. Then you stayed off work for years,  apparently claiming to be a caring for a parent but actually watching box sets? And apparently you are so tainted, whilst obviously having done nothing wrong,  that your old managers and possibly colleagues "have it in for you" and would blackball / blacklist you if they could. What makes you so important that out of the thousands of NHS employees that will have gone through the system in the last few years,  they will all recall you? 

And your solicitor suggested lying? And now ..."Only issue is the NMC say I need to get back to work or else leave the register and getting back on will be a hassle!! " So you don't want to go back to work? It's just because of NMC rules? 

Realistically, this may all be true, but - seriously- would you believe it? Do you actually want to go back to nursing / work? Have you told us everything that transpired? I actually don't care if you murdered someone and spent years in jail. I've employed two of those! But if you really want help - real help - we need to know what is going on. Truthfully and fully. 

There's "some form of NDA clause"? What does that mean? 

>>>It means the below, I have copied the text from my settlement agreement:-

"With the exception of their immediate family and legal representative [who will commit to do the same] and as required by any Court, or regulatory body, they will make no disclosure or announcement with regard to the fact or terms of this agreement.

They have not made, and will not do so in the future, any disclosure or announcement with regard to the negotiations leading up to this agreement with the exception of their immediate family and legal representative [who will commit to do the same]."

>>> Let me know what you think I should say to new employers in light of the NDA clause above?

And your solicitor suggested lying?

When I asked her about how to handle the Q  about how my employment ended from future employers, Solicitor  said just say "the job didn't work out". That's it!  So I could say that it didn't work out / job wasn't a good fit / job didn't match what employer told me at interview / my contract ended - ALL of which are true to a certain extent. 

Are you suggesting instead that I say "I got fired after I said to my manager that he/she had misled me into the job and is expecting me to do the job of a temp with no training putting patients at risk and then I took them to tribunal and settled out of court?" 

You got bullied,  left under a settlement agreement. You moved to a job you stayed in for very little time but somehow still managed to find cause to sue the employer and yet again let under a settlement agreement.

Yes, they misled me and tricked me into a job and asked me to do things which put patients at risk.  After the years of discrimination that happened with the NHS manager I decided not to put up with the BS at this new place. When I tried to discuss it with my manager, he/she got offended that I had confronted him/her and did a surprise dismissal. I sued under patient safety grounds and they paid out and I ended up with 2 settlement agreements after 15 years in the NHS and 2 months at new employer. It was just bad luck as I had jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire!

Then you stayed off work for years,  apparently claiming to be a caring for a parent but actually watching box sets?

The 2 are not mutually exclusive, I watched the box sets with my parent. It's true that I did care for my parent (GP appt, hospital, care home, physio) for some time, but probably not much for the last year or so.

And apparently you are so tainted, whilst obviously having done nothing wrong,  that your old managers and possibly colleagues "have it in for you" and would blackball / blacklist you if they could.

I worked in the NHS for a total of around 15 years and got quite high in banding (think Band 7/8a level). There are not all that many nurses at these bands in hospitals and this is quite a small county with a few hospitals so everyone at this level knows each other. Further, the deputy directors of nursing at my hospital knew about my case and then went to work at these other hospitals in the county so will recall me. Also I have to put down my last hospital as a place of work so it is easy enough for new employer to phone up my manager and get info on the me. I interviewed many people when I was working in the NHS and I still remember some of them and would definitely remember them if I came across them again and people will wonder why someone like me who achieved a high band in the NHS is now working at such a low Band, what caused the down spiral...

"Only issue is the NMC say I need to get back to work or else leave the register and getting back on will be a hassle!! " So you don't want to go back to work? It's just because of NMC rules? 

Yes. It's tough now with my 3 years employment gap and no references to find a job. But If I leave the NMC register then it will be even worse as I will have:

an even bigger employment gap, 

to do a shed load of training and 

find 2-3 people as character witnesses to get back on the register. 

I do want to work, but needed a push and the NMC telling me the above has done that. Either I find a job in the next 4 months or or I am off the register and will have to do all the above.

Do you actually want to go back to nursing / work? 

Yes. I need to because every day is the same and I'm bored and now the NMC is on my case too.

Have you told us everything that transpired? 

Yes, this is the totality of what I can disclose. Obviously I can't say where I worked or give in depth details about the Tribunal cases as this is against the settlement agreement NDA as above.

I actually don't care if you murdered someone and spent years in jail. I've employed two of those! But if you really want help - real help - we need to know what is going on. Truthfully and fully. 

I didn't kill anyone, I've not been in jail. I'm still on the NMC register and able to work as a nurse.

Just got discriminated against for a long time by my NHS manager, jumped into another job to get away from the stress, got scammed by the new employer and then dismissed when I called them on it (end up jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire), took time off work whilst Tribunal was ongoing which took around 18 months and my parents had a leg operation so cared for them during this time and that's about it. Everything was finally settled in April 2023, so it's now approx 18 months later = approx 3 years off in total. 

Anything else you want to know, just ask.

NeedSomeHRadvice

Marcon said:

OP - if you read through this thread, you might grasp why people are so frustrated, and why so many of us are drawing the conclusion that you are actually putting (largely imaginary) barriers in your own way.

Have you considered the possibility that you don't actually need HR advice as your moniker suggests, but perhaps some medical support to deal with problems which are maybe more of a challenge then you feel able to admit, even to yourself?

This is not an imaginary barrier. I've no idea who to put down as a reference. I can't ask former colleagues from the hospital as (1) I haven't seen any of them for the last 3 years, (2) I'm not sure they would give me a reference as they may be fear that if I mess up then they'll be tainted too and (3) I am embarrassed to ask them!

I've applied for a NHS temp job and I've got a reply from the employer asking me to explain the 3 year gap and asking for references to cover the last 3 years and 2 character references from people who have known me for the last 3 years (to cover the gap). I can provide the work references which were included in the settlement agreement but I can't provide references for the 3 years I've been a homebody.  

I can't even get a voluntary job at a hospital/healthcare field as they ask for the same references to cover the last 3 years.

LinLui

Reading through the latest wall of information, I note that you have varied the version again. Your last employer scammed you with a job that wasn't as advertised. Oh, except for the fact that now some form of whistleblowing around patient safety has crept in there. Or not,  since I'm not remotely clear how you could sue them on "patient safety grounds" since you weren't a patient. And,  it appears, nobody at all has known you in the last three years to provide character references. Nobody? You don't have a single friend or acquaintance who has known you for three years? 

Sorry,  I give up. To all intents and purposes you have burned bridges with previous employers and have then disappeared from the face of the earth for three years. I can't think of a single honest way to get around that. Whilst I understand that this may be difficult, you may have to accept that you cannot reenter health services without retraining,  or you may have to consider a new career. It is very understandable that health services are rigorous in referencing. And you must surely see that your position will ring every alarm bell going,  whether or not that should be so. I will be honest - in their shoes I wouldn't employ you,  even if I believed you. I'm generally not risk averse, but you are raising too many flags for even me to consider the risk worth taking. 

Undervalued

NeedSomeHRadvice said:

LinLui said:

There's "some form of NDA clause"? What does that mean? Exactly. Not the rough,  roundabout, something or other, skirting around the truth / issue of the last 4 pages. I'm sorry,  but you are drip feeding facts to people who (a) don't really care about your history,  and (b) are trying to help you.

You got bullied,  left under a settlement agreement. You moved to a job you stayed in for very little time but somehow still managed to find cause to sue the employer and yet again let under a settlement agreement. Then you stayed off work for years,  apparently claiming to be a caring for a parent but actually watching box sets? And apparently you are so tainted, whilst obviously having done nothing wrong,  that your old managers and possibly colleagues "have it in for you" and would blackball / blacklist you if they could. What makes you so important that out of the thousands of NHS employees that will have gone through the system in the last few years,  they will all recall you? 

And your solicitor suggested lying? And now ..."Only issue is the NMC say I need to get back to work or else leave the register and getting back on will be a hassle!! " So you don't want to go back to work? It's just because of NMC rules? 

Realistically, this may all be true, but - seriously- would you believe it? Do you actually want to go back to nursing / work? Have you told us everything that transpired? I actually don't care if you murdered someone and spent years in jail. I've employed two of those! But if you really want help - real help - we need to know what is going on. Truthfully and fully. 

There's "some form of NDA clause"? What does that mean? 

>>>It means the below, I have copied the text from my settlement agreement:-

"With the exception of their immediate family and legal representative [who will commit to do the same] and as required by any Court, or regulatory body, they will make no disclosure or announcement with regard to the fact or terms of this agreement.

They have not made, and will not do so in the future, any disclosure or announcement with regard to the negotiations leading up to this agreement with the exception of their immediate family and legal representative [who will commit to do the same]."

>>> Let me know what you think I should say to new employers in light of the NDA clause above?

Settlement agreements, except at very senior levels, are largely standard clauses boiler plated together (quite often badly)!

Those NDA clauses look very standard to me however quite often there is a further clause allowing the former employee to disclose, in confidence, to a potential employer. If yours doesn't then either whoever was advising you didn't do a very good job or the former employer dug their heels in for whatever reason. Ultimately you opted to sign.

Undervalued

LinLui said:

Reading through the latest wall of information, I note that you have varied the version again. Your last employer scammed you with a job that wasn't as advertised. Oh, except for the fact that now some form of whistleblowing around patient safety has crept in there. Or not,  since I'm not remotely clear how you could sue them on "patient safety grounds" since you weren't a patient. And,  it appears, nobody at all has known you in the last three years to provide character references. Nobody? You don't have a single friend or acquaintance who has known you for three years? 

Sorry,  I give up. To all intents and purposes you have burned bridges with previous employers and have then disappeared from the face of the earth for three years. I can't think of a single honest way to get around that. Whilst I understand that this may be difficult, you may have to accept that you cannot reenter health services without retraining,  or you may have to consider a new career. It is very understandable that health services are rigorous in referencing. And you must surely see that your position will ring every alarm bell going,  whether or not that should be so. I will be honest - in their shoes I wouldn't employ you,  even if I believed you. I'm generally not risk averse, but you are raising too many flags for even me to consider the risk worth taking. 

Indeed.

Whilst you do not have to volunteer information if it is not asked for, most prospective employers will ask for your full employment history for the past X years. If you miss "inconvenient" bits out you are lying by omission and if you adjust the dates to disguise this you are just simply lying. Technically, doing either in an attempt to secure employment is fraud. OK, it is generally unlikely to lead to a criminal prosecution but that does occasionally happen in certain circumstances. I feel sure I can recall one example in the health service, although that was at a very senior level.

Marcon

NeedSomeHRadvice said:

Marcon said:

OP - if you read through this thread, you might grasp why people are so frustrated, and why so many of us are drawing the conclusion that you are actually putting (largely imaginary) barriers in your own way.

Have you considered the possibility that you don't actually need HR advice as your moniker suggests, but perhaps some medical support to deal with problems which are maybe more of a challenge then you feel able to admit, even to yourself?

This is not an imaginary barrier. I've no idea who to put down as a reference. I can't ask former colleagues from the hospital as (1) I haven't seen any of them for the last 3 years, (2) I'm not sure they would give me a reference as they may be fear that if I mess up then they'll be tainted too and (3) I am embarrassed to ask them!

I've applied for a NHS temp job and I've got a reply from the employer asking me to explain the 3 year gap and asking for references to cover the last 3 years and 2 character references from people who have known me for the last 3 years (to cover the gap). I can provide the work references which were included in the settlement agreement but I can't provide references for the 3 years I've been a homebody.  

I can't even get a voluntary job at a hospital/healthcare field as they ask for the same references to cover the last 3 years.

As you've said more than once in this thread, you've got an agreed basic reference with your last two employers:
'I have agreed a basic reference as part of "parting ways" with the employers and they won't mention that I was dismissed on the reference'. So you do have references in that respect, and the time since you left won't impact on those agreements.

Character references can, by definition, come from anyone who knows you personally. Relatives aren't acceptable for obvious reasons, but your GP, dentist, optician, perhaps a former colleague from earlier in your career? The last would be the most obvious - and you're just making excuses, not giving valid reasons, for not asking them.

I can't ask former colleagues from the hospital as
(1) I haven't seen any of them for the last 3 years - why does that matter?
(2) I'm not sure they would give me a reference as they may be fear that if I mess up then they'll be tainted too - you can ask them to provide a brief character reference (not the same thing as a work reference), stressing they are able to include the usual 'this reference is given without responsibility..' etc
and (3) I am embarrassed to ask them! - If you'd sooner remain at stalemate, that's your choice. Swallow your pride and ask. You may find a lot of people are far more willing to help you than you fear.

NeedSomeHRadvice

LinLui said:

Reading through the latest wall of information, I note that you have varied the version again. Your last employer scammed you with a job that wasn't as advertised. Oh, except for the fact that now some form of whistleblowing around patient safety has crept in there. Or not,  since I'm not remotely clear how you could sue them on "patient safety grounds" since you weren't a patient. And,  it appears, nobody at all has known you in the last three years to provide character references. Nobody? You don't have a single friend or acquaintance who has known you for three years? 

Sorry,  I give up. To all intents and purposes you have burned bridges with previous employers and have then disappeared from the face of the earth for three years. I can't think of a single honest way to get around that. Whilst I understand that this may be difficult, you may have to accept that you cannot reenter health services without retraining,  or you may have to consider a new career. It is very understandable that health services are rigorous in referencing. And you must surely see that your position will ring every alarm bell going,  whether or not that should be so. I will be honest - in their shoes I wouldn't employ you,  even if I believed you. I'm generally not risk averse, but you are raising too many flags for even me to consider the risk worth taking. 

That's why I wrote that I have no references in my 1st post and have been hermit like for the last 3 years - did you read it?

My concerns were about lack of training (they scammed me by telling me I would get training - AND THIS WAS A TRAINING POST WHERE THEY WOULD UPSKILL YOU OVER 3 MONTHS -, one week after I started they got rid of the temp and told me to do the same job with hardly any training and so I raised patient safety issues with the manager and then got dismissed for bringing them up. By getting rid of the temp the would save £25/hour so you can imagine a private business wanting to do that.)

Usually when you sue an employer you DO burn bridges with the employer! And former colleagues still working   there usually don't want to get involved as it puts their employment at risk and are reluctant then to help you in giving references etc.

This is why I posted here for advice. Maybe I should have gone to church for the last 3 years and could have asked the priest for a reference/congregation but like I said the Tribunal stuff took 18 months and then I was a homebody/hermit after for a further 18 months and DIDN'T plan ahead!

NeedSomeHRadvice

Undervalued said:

NeedSomeHRadvice said:

LinLui said:

There's "some form of NDA clause"? What does that mean? Exactly. Not the rough,  roundabout, something or other, skirting around the truth / issue of the last 4 pages. I'm sorry,  but you are drip feeding facts to people who (a) don't really care about your history,  and (b) are trying to help you.

You got bullied,  left under a settlement agreement. You moved to a job you stayed in for very little time but somehow still managed to find cause to sue the employer and yet again let under a settlement agreement. Then you stayed off work for years,  apparently claiming to be a caring for a parent but actually watching box sets? And apparently you are so tainted, whilst obviously having done nothing wrong,  that your old managers and possibly colleagues "have it in for you" and would blackball / blacklist you if they could. What makes you so important that out of the thousands of NHS employees that will have gone through the system in the last few years,  they will all recall you? 

And your solicitor suggested lying? And now ..."Only issue is the NMC say I need to get back to work or else leave the register and getting back on will be a hassle!! " So you don't want to go back to work? It's just because of NMC rules? 

Realistically, this may all be true, but - seriously- would you believe it? Do you actually want to go back to nursing / work? Have you told us everything that transpired? I actually don't care if you murdered someone and spent years in jail. I've employed two of those! But if you really want help - real help - we need to know what is going on. Truthfully and fully. 

There's "some form of NDA clause"? What does that mean? 

>>>It means the below, I have copied the text from my settlement agreement:-

"With the exception of their immediate family and legal representative [who will commit to do the same] and as required by any Court, or regulatory body, they will make no disclosure or announcement with regard to the fact or terms of this agreement.

They have not made, and will not do so in the future, any disclosure or announcement with regard to the negotiations leading up to this agreement with the exception of their immediate family and legal representative [who will commit to do the same]."

>>> Let me know what you think I should say to new employers in light of the NDA clause above?

Settlement agreements, except at very senior levels, are largely standard clauses boiler plated together (quite often badly)!

Those NDA clauses look very standard to me however quite often there is a further clause allowing the former employee to disclose, in confidence, to a potential employer. If yours doesn't then either whoever was advising you didn't do a very good job or the former employer dug their heels in for whatever reason. Ultimately you opted to sign.

Even if I could tell the new employer, what would I say? 

"I got fired after I said to my manager that he/she had misled me into the job and is expecting me to do the job of a temp with no training putting patients at risk and then I took them to tribunal and settled out of court?"

No one would employ me if I said that.... 

I have laid out what happened in a good amount of detail. Say there wasn't NDA involved and I could say anything I wanted to a new employer. If you were in my situation, what would you say to a new employer about what happened / explain the gap in employment when asked?? 

elsien

An ex colleague giving you a character reference is not going to put their employment at risk because their employee does not need to know about it.