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Rebuttal Left It Late!
OverThisNow
Posts: 7 Forumite
Hi all,
Life has been ever so busy and I am on my final day to respond to the comments made by ECP on my POPLA appeal.
I entered a Euro Car Park, it is not attached to any retail store but is in the city centre of Preston. I had a baby and a child with an Educational Health Care Plan at school due global developmental delay with me. We entered the car park, it took some time to read the sign, get all the kids ready, queue in the line to get a permit and then to pay and display the permit on the dashboard.
Car entered at 14:39:58 and exited at 17:57:22 a total of 3 hours and 18 minutes with an 18 minute overstay.
I appealed to Euro Car Parks, rejected and then appealed to POPLA using templates on MSE on the following grounds:
1) Grace Period: BPA Code of Practice–non-compliance
2) There are no entrance signs for the regular entry and signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces. Furthermore, there is no marked parking bay at the location nor boundary of the venue
3) No Evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice
4) Failure to comply with the data protection 'ICO Code of Practice' applicable to ANPR (no information about SAR rights, no privacy statement, no evaluation to justify that 24/7 ANPR enforcement at this site is justified, fair and proportionate). A serious BPA CoP breach
5) No Evidence of Period Parked – NtK does not meet PoFA2012 requirements
6) Vehicle Images contained in PCN: BPA Code of Practice – noncompliance
7) The ANPR System is Neither Reliable nor Accurate
8) The Signs Fail to Transparently Warn Drivers of what the ANPR Data will be used for
9) No Planning Permission from Preston City Council for Pole-Mounted ANPR Cameras and no Advertising Consent for signage
Euro Car Parks submitted their evidence on 2nd August and today if my final day to reply...
They begin their evidence pack with a note of the penalty charge (£100) and how much of this I have paid (£0) which is unnecessary as it clearly states on their response to my internal appeal that if the payment is made, the case cannot be taken to POPLA.
They then talked about registered keeper details and liability trail and how their PCN has been checked by BPA and IPC and they have confirmation that it POFA compliant. They have not attached the BPA or IPC confirmation. They have said as I have declined to notify them of the driver then I as the registered keeper am liable.
They have some pictures of their signage which looks quite clear in their photographs. However, it is a photograph taken quite up close. If you are stood in a queue at the machines, you would struggle to read the signage until you get to the machines themselves. I also went to the site and took a photo of the sign, and I took it from a point and angle as if stood in a queue.
They then go on to say that their signage is clear and that they have photographic evidence that the vehicle remained on site for 3 hours 18 minutes, which is correct. However, I would argue that I was not parked for the entirety of that time, and parking occurs only after the signs have been read, the wait in the queue has occurred, the permit has been purchased and placed on the dashboard and then you leave your car parked.
The vehicle entered at 14:39:58 however, in their evidence, Euro Car Parks show the transaction receipts for their machines and the transaction time for this vehicle was 14:47:05. I would thus argue that I only overstayed by 11 minutes at the end of the parking time due to being busy at the tills in the shopping centre. A grace period must be allowed in accordance to BPA and 11 minutes is not an unreasonable grace period. Their is nowhere on the signs where it says the the permit purchased must cover the time in between enter the car park and purchasing the permit as well as the time the car will be left parked.
They included this in their evidence: According to BPA Code of Practise 13.4 – car park operators should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended; before enforcement action is taken. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted; the grace period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes
Surely, this supports my case?
• According to BPA Code of Practise 13.4 – car park operators should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended; before enforcement action is taken. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted; the grace period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes. • Figure 3 confirms that the NTK is PoFA compliant. • Any form of parking ticket or ‘notice’ is issued under the law ‘of trespass and Contract Law’. A driver who is invited (or chooses) to park on private land and use the car parking facilities and pays a fee/s does so under a contract (signage) with the car park operator. The parking contract sets out the terms that apply to the parking service, including the price. • The contract (signage) clearly states the extra charges are that the driver will incur and have to pay if they decide to break the contract terms − for example, by parking longer than the time paid for or exceeding the maximum time limit applicable. • Automatic Number Plate Recognition systems are effectively image processing and microprocessor devices with an internal reference clock based around a set of components referred to as the ‘Real Time Clock chipset’ or RTC. The chipset uses a quartz crystal reference source and will provide a reliable time reference dependant on a drift characteristic determined by variations in local camera temperature. High fluctuations in local ambient can cause the RTC to drift as much as 30 seconds a month and to counteract this an NTP server is utilised. The NTP server is effectively a computer situated in a control room and takes a reference time source from a GPS satellite and provides a hyper accurate time reference. All camera systems operated by ECP are configured to request a time synchronisation from the NTP on a sixty second basis. This ensures that all cameras have a universal time reference which is accurate to a few thousandths of a second. Cameras also report a ‘heartbeat’ to our back office environment, again on a sixty second basis, and this is used to establish camera operation; logs of these transactions from all cameras are retained for approximately six months. On capture of an ANPR read this is transmitted to a similar back office environment where the time difference between that tagged on the raw capture and the ‘real time’ of the servers is again tested. • All ANPR cameras used by ECP are compliant under the home office approval framework as stated under NAAS/NASP. • Euro Car Parks do not need to provide evidence of who was driving the vehicle, it is the registered keeper’s responsibility to inform of the full name and UK Serviceable address within 28 days beginning with the day after the notice was given. If the full amount remains unpaid, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (‘the Act’), Euro Car Parks have the right subject of the Act to recover from the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked so much of that amount which remains unpaid. • The Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) does not alter the principle of driver liability. What it does do, is to allow proceedings against the registered keeper for unpaid parking charges when the landowner or their agent, the parking operator does not know who the driver was at the time. • The creditor/operator must follow the procedures set out in POFA Schedule 4 to achieve the benefits of keeper liability. • The car park is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR). Cameras capture an image of vehicles entering and leaving the car park and calculate their length of stay on site. • Signage is clear drivers must purchase a valid pay and display ticket for the duration of their stay. • A ticket matching your registration was purchased for £2.60 this would have entitled your vehicle to park for up to 1 Hours according to the clearly displayed tariff. Page 14 of 31 Pay and Display Expired • Your vehicle entered at 14:39:59 and exited at 17:57:22, a total stay of 3 hours and 18 minutes. • The P&D/permit purchased did not cover the date and time of parking and therefore the notice has been issued correctly. • The car park in question is on private land and upon entering such land vehicles are subject to the terms and conditions of parking as shown on the signage. This signage quite clearly states that if your vehicle is in breach of the terms and conditions of the car park then a parking charge notice (PCN) will be issued. • On entry to private land, it is the responsibility of the driver to check for signage and ensure that your vehicle has been correctly parked. Any vehicles found not adhering to the signage will be issued with a parking charge notice (PCN). • Please be advised that there are a number of signs around the car park indicating the restrictions of the site and it is the responsibility of the driver to read them when parking. • According to BPA Code of Practise 13.4 – car park operators should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended; before enforcement action is taken. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted; the grace period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes. • I can confirm that Euro Car Parks have given the driver of the vehicle the suitable grace period of 10 minutes and was issued a Parking Charge Notice. • The onus is on the customer to ensure they have paid for the full duration of their parking. • The pay and display ticket clearly advises the driver of the expiry date and time of the parking session. I can confirm that the motorist was given the minimum of 10 minutes to exit the car park. • The total time of entry is calculated from the time vehicle enters the site and exits. • ANPR capture is complete in the infrared domain and does not use the colour overview to determine the vehicle registration mark. The infrared image is where all algorithms are complete to process the number plate recognition. This is the image that is checked against for correct capture when Euro Car Parks complete the manual checking process. The colour overview acts as an added evidential record and is just added supporting evidence. The overview image is taken at the exact same time the infrared image is taken and although the image is dark due to the headlights we can be sure that the vehicle with the matching plate was at the site at that time. The police use exactly the same technology (we use CA Traffic) to act as evidence in a court of law during the day or night due to the way that the technology operates. Euro Car Parks use National ACPO ANPR Standards (NAAS) ANPR standard cameras that have been approved by ACPO for these exact reasons so that we can enforce at nighttime. • Automatic Number plate Recognition Cameras (ANPR) operated by ECP are provided by various suppliers all of whom have equipment accredited under the Police National ACPO ANPR Standard or NAAS (V4.12 Nov 2011) and latterly NASP. While not strictly applicable to parking systems the NAAS/NASP compliance provides a framework around which ECP operates equipment although many of our standard operating procedures exceed that which is required under the NAAS/NASP framework. • Often cited under ‘calibration’ there is no requirement under NAAS/NASP or other standards to calibrate an ANPR camera when used within a parking environment, calibration is usually limited to speed enforcement systems or average speed installations. We do however ensure that all our systems are communicating correctly, capturing data and synchronising to a hyper accurate satellite-based time reference system and this is monitored end-to-end on an hourly basis with automated reporting systems that will alert our team of specialists to any problems. Our ANPR systems operate a dynamic performance evaluation process and almost immediately flag a potential operational problem allowing us to apply a proactive approach to any issue. Our in-house technical team are on hand to ensure any operational issues are dealt with quickly and efficiently. This coupled with regular maintenance and on-going site visits ensures that ECP manages what we believe to be an industry leading reliability factor across our estate of equipment throughout England, Scotland and Wales. • With further reference to your SAR – Subject Access Request, I have duly passed to our Data Protection Manager who will respond in due course. Page 15 of 31 Pay and Display Expired • I would respectfully remind that contract law applies in this instance. • The car park is private property and signage on entrance and within the private car park clearly set out the rules and regulations of the car park and tariffs (if applicable). By entering the car park, parking and leaving the vehicle the driver has accepted the ‘contract’ and therefore if the driver fails to comply with the terms and conditions a parking charge notice will be correctly issued. • As the driver remained on site for 3 hours and 18 minutes, the contract has been formed. As the driver did not purchase a valid pay and display ticket/session, the contract has been breached and therefore the PCN was issued correctly. • Figure 4 shows the contract between ECP and the landowner.
These were the rest of their points. ^^^
I am not able to post images or links but if you would like to see them, I could try sending them another way?
Life has been ever so busy and I am on my final day to respond to the comments made by ECP on my POPLA appeal.
I entered a Euro Car Park, it is not attached to any retail store but is in the city centre of Preston. I had a baby and a child with an Educational Health Care Plan at school due global developmental delay with me. We entered the car park, it took some time to read the sign, get all the kids ready, queue in the line to get a permit and then to pay and display the permit on the dashboard.
Car entered at 14:39:58 and exited at 17:57:22 a total of 3 hours and 18 minutes with an 18 minute overstay.
I appealed to Euro Car Parks, rejected and then appealed to POPLA using templates on MSE on the following grounds:
1) Grace Period: BPA Code of Practice–non-compliance
2) There are no entrance signs for the regular entry and signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces. Furthermore, there is no marked parking bay at the location nor boundary of the venue
3) No Evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice
4) Failure to comply with the data protection 'ICO Code of Practice' applicable to ANPR (no information about SAR rights, no privacy statement, no evaluation to justify that 24/7 ANPR enforcement at this site is justified, fair and proportionate). A serious BPA CoP breach
5) No Evidence of Period Parked – NtK does not meet PoFA2012 requirements
6) Vehicle Images contained in PCN: BPA Code of Practice – noncompliance
7) The ANPR System is Neither Reliable nor Accurate
8) The Signs Fail to Transparently Warn Drivers of what the ANPR Data will be used for
9) No Planning Permission from Preston City Council for Pole-Mounted ANPR Cameras and no Advertising Consent for signage
Euro Car Parks submitted their evidence on 2nd August and today if my final day to reply...
They begin their evidence pack with a note of the penalty charge (£100) and how much of this I have paid (£0) which is unnecessary as it clearly states on their response to my internal appeal that if the payment is made, the case cannot be taken to POPLA.
They then talked about registered keeper details and liability trail and how their PCN has been checked by BPA and IPC and they have confirmation that it POFA compliant. They have not attached the BPA or IPC confirmation. They have said as I have declined to notify them of the driver then I as the registered keeper am liable.
They have some pictures of their signage which looks quite clear in their photographs. However, it is a photograph taken quite up close. If you are stood in a queue at the machines, you would struggle to read the signage until you get to the machines themselves. I also went to the site and took a photo of the sign, and I took it from a point and angle as if stood in a queue.
They then go on to say that their signage is clear and that they have photographic evidence that the vehicle remained on site for 3 hours 18 minutes, which is correct. However, I would argue that I was not parked for the entirety of that time, and parking occurs only after the signs have been read, the wait in the queue has occurred, the permit has been purchased and placed on the dashboard and then you leave your car parked.
The vehicle entered at 14:39:58 however, in their evidence, Euro Car Parks show the transaction receipts for their machines and the transaction time for this vehicle was 14:47:05. I would thus argue that I only overstayed by 11 minutes at the end of the parking time due to being busy at the tills in the shopping centre. A grace period must be allowed in accordance to BPA and 11 minutes is not an unreasonable grace period. Their is nowhere on the signs where it says the the permit purchased must cover the time in between enter the car park and purchasing the permit as well as the time the car will be left parked.
They included this in their evidence: According to BPA Code of Practise 13.4 – car park operators should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended; before enforcement action is taken. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted; the grace period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes
Surely, this supports my case?
• According to BPA Code of Practise 13.4 – car park operators should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended; before enforcement action is taken. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted; the grace period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes. • Figure 3 confirms that the NTK is PoFA compliant. • Any form of parking ticket or ‘notice’ is issued under the law ‘of trespass and Contract Law’. A driver who is invited (or chooses) to park on private land and use the car parking facilities and pays a fee/s does so under a contract (signage) with the car park operator. The parking contract sets out the terms that apply to the parking service, including the price. • The contract (signage) clearly states the extra charges are that the driver will incur and have to pay if they decide to break the contract terms − for example, by parking longer than the time paid for or exceeding the maximum time limit applicable. • Automatic Number Plate Recognition systems are effectively image processing and microprocessor devices with an internal reference clock based around a set of components referred to as the ‘Real Time Clock chipset’ or RTC. The chipset uses a quartz crystal reference source and will provide a reliable time reference dependant on a drift characteristic determined by variations in local camera temperature. High fluctuations in local ambient can cause the RTC to drift as much as 30 seconds a month and to counteract this an NTP server is utilised. The NTP server is effectively a computer situated in a control room and takes a reference time source from a GPS satellite and provides a hyper accurate time reference. All camera systems operated by ECP are configured to request a time synchronisation from the NTP on a sixty second basis. This ensures that all cameras have a universal time reference which is accurate to a few thousandths of a second. Cameras also report a ‘heartbeat’ to our back office environment, again on a sixty second basis, and this is used to establish camera operation; logs of these transactions from all cameras are retained for approximately six months. On capture of an ANPR read this is transmitted to a similar back office environment where the time difference between that tagged on the raw capture and the ‘real time’ of the servers is again tested. • All ANPR cameras used by ECP are compliant under the home office approval framework as stated under NAAS/NASP. • Euro Car Parks do not need to provide evidence of who was driving the vehicle, it is the registered keeper’s responsibility to inform of the full name and UK Serviceable address within 28 days beginning with the day after the notice was given. If the full amount remains unpaid, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (‘the Act’), Euro Car Parks have the right subject of the Act to recover from the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked so much of that amount which remains unpaid. • The Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) does not alter the principle of driver liability. What it does do, is to allow proceedings against the registered keeper for unpaid parking charges when the landowner or their agent, the parking operator does not know who the driver was at the time. • The creditor/operator must follow the procedures set out in POFA Schedule 4 to achieve the benefits of keeper liability. • The car park is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR). Cameras capture an image of vehicles entering and leaving the car park and calculate their length of stay on site. • Signage is clear drivers must purchase a valid pay and display ticket for the duration of their stay. • A ticket matching your registration was purchased for £2.60 this would have entitled your vehicle to park for up to 1 Hours according to the clearly displayed tariff. Page 14 of 31 Pay and Display Expired • Your vehicle entered at 14:39:59 and exited at 17:57:22, a total stay of 3 hours and 18 minutes. • The P&D/permit purchased did not cover the date and time of parking and therefore the notice has been issued correctly. • The car park in question is on private land and upon entering such land vehicles are subject to the terms and conditions of parking as shown on the signage. This signage quite clearly states that if your vehicle is in breach of the terms and conditions of the car park then a parking charge notice (PCN) will be issued. • On entry to private land, it is the responsibility of the driver to check for signage and ensure that your vehicle has been correctly parked. Any vehicles found not adhering to the signage will be issued with a parking charge notice (PCN). • Please be advised that there are a number of signs around the car park indicating the restrictions of the site and it is the responsibility of the driver to read them when parking. • According to BPA Code of Practise 13.4 – car park operators should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended; before enforcement action is taken. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted; the grace period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes. • I can confirm that Euro Car Parks have given the driver of the vehicle the suitable grace period of 10 minutes and was issued a Parking Charge Notice. • The onus is on the customer to ensure they have paid for the full duration of their parking. • The pay and display ticket clearly advises the driver of the expiry date and time of the parking session. I can confirm that the motorist was given the minimum of 10 minutes to exit the car park. • The total time of entry is calculated from the time vehicle enters the site and exits. • ANPR capture is complete in the infrared domain and does not use the colour overview to determine the vehicle registration mark. The infrared image is where all algorithms are complete to process the number plate recognition. This is the image that is checked against for correct capture when Euro Car Parks complete the manual checking process. The colour overview acts as an added evidential record and is just added supporting evidence. The overview image is taken at the exact same time the infrared image is taken and although the image is dark due to the headlights we can be sure that the vehicle with the matching plate was at the site at that time. The police use exactly the same technology (we use CA Traffic) to act as evidence in a court of law during the day or night due to the way that the technology operates. Euro Car Parks use National ACPO ANPR Standards (NAAS) ANPR standard cameras that have been approved by ACPO for these exact reasons so that we can enforce at nighttime. • Automatic Number plate Recognition Cameras (ANPR) operated by ECP are provided by various suppliers all of whom have equipment accredited under the Police National ACPO ANPR Standard or NAAS (V4.12 Nov 2011) and latterly NASP. While not strictly applicable to parking systems the NAAS/NASP compliance provides a framework around which ECP operates equipment although many of our standard operating procedures exceed that which is required under the NAAS/NASP framework. • Often cited under ‘calibration’ there is no requirement under NAAS/NASP or other standards to calibrate an ANPR camera when used within a parking environment, calibration is usually limited to speed enforcement systems or average speed installations. We do however ensure that all our systems are communicating correctly, capturing data and synchronising to a hyper accurate satellite-based time reference system and this is monitored end-to-end on an hourly basis with automated reporting systems that will alert our team of specialists to any problems. Our ANPR systems operate a dynamic performance evaluation process and almost immediately flag a potential operational problem allowing us to apply a proactive approach to any issue. Our in-house technical team are on hand to ensure any operational issues are dealt with quickly and efficiently. This coupled with regular maintenance and on-going site visits ensures that ECP manages what we believe to be an industry leading reliability factor across our estate of equipment throughout England, Scotland and Wales. • With further reference to your SAR – Subject Access Request, I have duly passed to our Data Protection Manager who will respond in due course. Page 15 of 31 Pay and Display Expired • I would respectfully remind that contract law applies in this instance. • The car park is private property and signage on entrance and within the private car park clearly set out the rules and regulations of the car park and tariffs (if applicable). By entering the car park, parking and leaving the vehicle the driver has accepted the ‘contract’ and therefore if the driver fails to comply with the terms and conditions a parking charge notice will be correctly issued. • As the driver remained on site for 3 hours and 18 minutes, the contract has been formed. As the driver did not purchase a valid pay and display ticket/session, the contract has been breached and therefore the PCN was issued correctly. • Figure 4 shows the contract between ECP and the landowner.
These were the rest of their points. ^^^
I am not able to post images or links but if you would like to see them, I could try sending them another way?
0
Comments
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I can't read that wall of text but there's no need. Rebuttal is fairly unimportant and you'll likely lose at Popla anyway, which is normal.
I am not seeing a winning point.
Complain to the landowner.
Forget POPLA if you lose. No paying!PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD2 -
There is a redacted copy of the contract with the landowner.
It is signed between ECP Holdings and Euro Car Parks. Are they not the same? Barry Tucker has signed for ECP holdings and I thought he was the director of Euro Car Parks.
In this case who exactly should I contact to complain?
And is grace periods not enough to win at POPLA? 🤦♀️
0 -
No point complaining then. Just sit tight.
You will lose at POPLA (unless their signage evidence is pants) and IMHO you shouldn't have wasted your time trying it.
But no harm done.
No, grace periods won't win at POPLA because they are useless, ignore the legal test of fairness and instead POPLA Assessors just go by the current BPA CoP which doesn't let you add a consideration period to a grace period. Scam, innit?PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
I got my POPLA decision and my appeal was rejected…
I did a £3 Land Registry search to find the owner of this car park. It is registered to an individual, I tried a quick Google search and I think he has a few companies, investment and accounting companies.The registry search has provided his full name, address and email address. What exactly should I write to him? I am not exactly a customer and I can’t find templates for letters/emails to complain to a single owner of a piece of land.0 -
Also forgot to add, in the evidence back that ECP provides at POPLA appeal, when I asked for the landowners contract they provided a 2017 contract between ECP and Barry Tucker.When I did the land registry search it shows that the current owner is actually new and he purchased this land on 7th July 2023.1
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So, save that juicy bit of evidence for court, if they take it that far.1
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Sitting tight it is.It’s like pulling teeth. I ignored the rejected POPLA appeal and didn’t hear anything for a while. I thought maybe ECP would contact to encourage payment after appeal rejection but today I got a Debt Recovery Plus letter.It’s tempting to pay over 4 months interest free and just get this over and done with! How long does the debt recovery stage tend to last before ECP take it to court?And will the debt recovery increase from the £170 they’re asking for in this first letter or will they send a few more letters and then take it to court?0
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OverThisNow said:...today I got a Debt Recovery Plus letter.
The fourth post of the NEWBIES thread explains exactly how to deal with debt collector's letters, but to summarise that post - ignore them.2 -
" How long does the debt recovery stage tend to last before ECP take it to court? "
A suggestion - have you read any other ECP threads? (there are loads of them) - you will then have an idea of how the case is likely to progress.2 -
It’s tempting to pay over 4 months interest free and just get this over and done with!
But it is much more fun to let them take you to court, especially for someone as literate as your goodself, ,You never know how far you can go until you go too far.1
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