IMPORTANT REMINDER: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information. If you are uploading images, please take extra care that you have redacted all personal information.

**NEWBIES!! PRIVATE PARKING TICKET? OLD OR NEW? **READ THESE FAQS FIRST!** Thankyou!

edited 31 May 2020 at 2:11PM in Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking
10 replies 1.6M views
Coupon-madCoupon-mad
101.5K Posts
Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
✭✭✭✭✭✭
:) WELCOME! :)

HOW TO BEAT A PRIVATE PCN: BY APPEAL, COMPLAINT, OR DEFENCE.

BEFORE YOU USE THE FORUM, IF YOU ARE NOT SURE HOW TO USE IT, CLICK HERE Forum Introduction Guide

AND READ THESE; YOU'LL SOON BE UP TO SPEED AND MAY FIND YOUR ANSWER BY SEARCHING FOR SIMILAR POSTS:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/faqs/how-do-i-ask-a-question-on-the-forum/

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_vb3_board_usage


DO NOT USE YOUR REAL NAME AS YOUR USERNAME IF YOU POST A THREAD:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5532696


FAQS FIRST. NO THREAD IS NEEDED IF YOUR QUESTIONS ARE:

Q - ''I have read the NEWBIES thread but cannot find anything specific to my case...my case is different''.

A - NO IT ISN'T. YOU DO NOT NEED SPECIFICS. FORGET THE DETAIL, MOST CASES ARE ALL THE SAME.

Q - ''Is this info up to date, because this thread was started in 2013?''

A - YES, IT IS. SEE THE DATE LAST EDITED (RECENTLY!) AS SHOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST.

Q - ''My vehicle is lease/hired/company car and I'm not the registered keeper. Is the advice different?''

A - YES, PLEASE SEE THE SECTION ABOUT LEASE/HIRE/COMPANY CARS AT THE FOOT OF THIS POST*

Q - ''My PCN is from a Council (e.g. bus lane, box junction or parking PENALTY) so does this thread apply?''

A - NO, BUT THEY CAN BE APPEALED. GO TO 'PEPIPOO.COM' COUNCIL TICKETS FORUM INSTEAD.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

Q - ''I don't understand any of your acronyms, this is too complicated!''

A - THE USUAL ACRONYMS ARE EXPLAINED LOWER DOWN THIS THREAD, SEPARATELY, IN POST #5. APPEALING IS NOT COMPLICATED, YOUR APPEAL IS ALREADY WRITTEN FOR YOU BELOW FOR YOU TO COPY & PASTE INTO THE PPC's ONLINE APPEAL PAGE.

Q - ''My PCN says the 'fine' will go up after 14 days, so why are you suggesting I wait before appealing?''

A - FORGET THE '14 DAYS JITTERS'. THE 'DISCOUNT' IS A BRIBE NOT TO APPEAL.

Q - ''My PCN is from an IPC member, should I really not try IAS, and why not?''

A - Next to no chance. Sad to say but the IAS is widely considered a kangaroo court, Normal appeal facts like 'I was not the driver, no keeper liability' don't cut it with the IAS and losing that stage will make most posters feel more worried.

DON'T TRY IAS & PLEASE DON'T POST ASKING FOR YOUR 'NEXT STEP'. NONE, TILL COURT.

Q - ''My PCN is from UKCPM or UKCPS (insert IPC firm here) and the signs say they are both BPA & IPC members?''

A - THEY ARE NOT. SPARE OUR TIME ON THIS BUSY FORUM. NO MORE THREADS LIKE THIS!
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5784929

Q - ''My windscreen Notice is a 'PENALTY' from a Railway car park, issued by a private firm (SABA), what do I do?''

The only thing to do differently with SABA RAILWAY PENALTY (specifically only that type) is to WAIT for the first letter to arrive (as long as it's your own vehicle, not leased/hired - if it is you must respond yourself quickly). These fake penalties go nowhere, and 'time out' after just 6 months. There is no POPLA offered and no fair appeal; nothing makes them cancel. For a summary about Railway penalties, written by a newbie who did her research click here and just search the forum for SABA for more like this: here.

Q - ''I'm in Scotland/NI, so is the advice different?''

YES. IF THE EVENT TOOK PLACE IN SCOTLAND OR NORTHERN IRELAND, WE SUGGEST YOU DO (ALWAYS!) COMPLAIN TO STORE MANAGEMENT IF YOUR PCN IS FROM A RETAIL PARK, AND SEND THE USUAL TEMPLATE APPEAL FOR YOUR CASE, NOT SAYING WHO WAS DRIVING. HOWEVER, DO NOT TRY POPLA BECAUSE POPLA (IN A CASE THAT TOOK PLACE OUTSIDE ENGLAND/WALE) WILL REQUIRE YOU TO STATE IF YOU WERE DRIVING OR NOT, AND THAT IS THE ONE THING NOT TO DISCLOSE.

Q - ''I am getting debt collector letters! They're really scary, the 'fine' has gone up, what do I do?''

A - If this is the VERY FIRST letter from a debt collector like PCS or ZZPS, appeal that Notice as if it was the 'Notice to Keeper'. IF YOU MISSED APPEAL AND ARE GETTING DEBT LETTERS - DO NOTHING! DO NOT RING THE DEBT COLLECTOR! See post #4 below. Do not post a thread (please, we have no time and you will be grateful later when you really need us, that we don't get bogged down with answering posts about 'ignore the debt collector letters' stage).

Q - ''I have a (non-debt collector) Letter Before County Court Claim (LBCCC), or a Court Claim, or a CCJ that I have just discovered - is it too late to beat this - should I now pay?''

A - IT IS NOT TOO LATE. WE WIN 99% OF WELL-DEFENDED COURT CLAIMS! CERTAINLY DON'T RUSH TO PAY OFF A CCJ, WHICH OFTEN DOES NOT REMOVE IT. SEEK OUR ADVICE FIRST. SEE POST #2 BELOW.

Q - ''Why isn't this sort of rip-off scam illegal? I thought these were unenforceable.''

A - Private charges are based on contract law and allege that the driver breached a contractual term (e.g. an implied promise, such as to display a permit or not to overstay a 2 hour free period). Such contracts can be enforceable in the county court, but are defendable (see post #2 all about small claim defences). Charges are not 'illegal' but this industry is skating on thin ice. These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint.



****************************


Action to be taken if you are the registered keeper of the vehicle, in this order:

1. ALL CASES, EVERYWHERE - COMPLAIN FIRST, ESPECIALLY OVER A RETAIL, HOTEL, OR HOSPITAL CAR PARK:

Always complain to the Retailer very quickly. This is 'Plan A' :

Successful complaints about private parking tickets - how to get them cancelled! <<< CLICK

It can be easy and quick to get these cancelled by a landowner. If the charge was at a Hospital then immediately complain to PALS (Google it and find their local contact).


2. ONLY after exhausting the complaints option, then as Plan B, the keeper appeals.

Appealing a private PCN

Windscreen ticket from a BPA member? = STOP - wait and research before appealing!! If it was a windscreen 'PCN' (not postal, not an IPC member and not a SABA Railway 'penalty' - see Q&A above) wait 3 weeks.

In the case of CURRENT (NON-DVLA-BANNED) BRITISH PARKING ASSOCIATION (BPA) AOS MEMBERS ONLY, appeal online or by email at day 25 or 26 after a windscreen PCN but as the KEEPER, not driver, using the ''one size fits all'' blue appeal template below.

Q - ''But I want to appeal now! Why wait till day 26 before appealing a BPA member windscreen PCN?''

A - To tie them up in the appeals process at a time when they should also be posting a Notice to Keeper (NTK). Many PPCs in the BPA omit any NTK when replying to an appeal and the very fact a PPC forgets to send you a NTK by day 56, gives you a winning point at POPLA. Don't forget this tactic, and use it at POPLA stage: having appealed on day 25 or 26 after a windscreen PCN, make sure you take note of whether any postal NTK is ever received in the following weeks. A rejection letter with POPLA code is not a 'NTK'.

You must include 'no keeper liability' at POPLA stage if you do NOT receive a NTK at all in that time, and you will win as long as you make the missing NTK clear to POPLA.


IPC members are different:

In the case of CURRENT IPC AOS MEMBERS ONLY, we now advise to WAIT for a Notice to Keeper to arrive and then challenge once as the KEEPER, not driver, using the template appeal, as shown below.

Q -''Why wait for the 'NTK' to arrive a month later, after finding an IPC member windscreen PCN?''

A: Because there has been shown to be no appeal worth trying really, you will get a rejection anyway, so you may as well leave it and see if they issue a NTK and let them apply to the DVLA (unless yours is a company or lease car of course, in which case you MUST appeal at windscreen PCN stage as stated at the end of this thread).

Postal PCN from a BPA or IPC member ? (i.e. with no mention of any windscreen ticket):

A postal PCN or NTK might be headed up 'Reminder' or 'Charge Notice' or it may even be a letter from a debt collector - it is your Notice to Keeper, in effect, if it's the first letter to arrive. No need to wait, appeal online as registered keeper (or as ''hirer/lessee'' if that's the case, see * below re lease/hire cars).

This is why not to name the driver (thanks to The Slithy Tove for this explanation):

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69906180#post69906180




************************************************************************


TEMPLATE ''ONE SIZE FITS ALL'' FIRST APPEAL THAT DOESN'T SAY WHO WAS DRIVING:



Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.

If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner.


THE NAME AND POSTAL ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER (OR THE HIRER/LESSEE) GOES HERE, OR IN THE RELEVANT BOX ON THEIR APPEALS PAGE.

THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.


DON'T POST IT BY ROYAL MAIL UNLESS YOU HAVE NO OTHER OPTION ON THE PCN.

CERTAINLY NOT BY RECORDED DELIVERY - FORGET THAT!
- ALWAYS USE THE ONLINE APPEAL PAGE - OR EMAIL IF OFFERED AS AN OPTION ON THE NOTICE - BECAUSE THE APPEAL CANNOT GET LOST AND YOU CAN KEEP PROOF/ A SCREENSHOT. NO NEED TO USE YOUR REAL SIGNATURE IF YOU HAVE NO OTHER APPEAL OPTION BUT POSTAL...BUT OF COURSE YOU PUT YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS!


You can (carefully!) add a little to the template above, 'in order to resolve the dispute I attach copies of...':

- the driver's receipts/bank transactions (or Hospital Appointment/Hotel booking, etc.) that day as 'they' were a genuine customer/patient, etc.

- If an occupant of the car is disabled or elderly/infirm, then the keeper can add that, without implying who was driving.

- A copy of the Blue Badge is a good idea to upload/attach but without saying who parked.



********************************************************

Want to dig deeper? Check the compliance of your Notice to Keeper, if the PPC is citing 'keeper liability' under the POFA. Here's a link to Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 which applies in England/Wales only (look for the words shown in paragraph 8 if it's a 'windscreen ticket followed by a NTK', or the words in paragraph 9 if it's a postal PCN only):

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

If the NTK arrives late, this does not make the PCN 'void' but it means there is 'no keeper liability' possible.

If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to!) the a postal PCN must arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket.

Or, the NTK must arrive with you between day 29 and day 57 if there was a windscreen PCN.

Some firms (e.g. Civil Enforcement, Highview, Smart Parking, CP Plus and some small PPCs) don't even bother with POFA 2012 wording so the keeper is not liable and you must you point that out to POPLA.



******************************************************


* COMPANY, LEASE OR HIRE CARS ANYWHERE IN THE UK

In the case of a company car or hire car, if you get a windscreen ticket and cannot get it cancelled by the landowner (PLAN A above), appeal within the first 2 weeks, well before day 21. This is in order to hook the PPC in your direction, before they get a chance to get the keeper's details from the DVLA.

You should also warn the owner/keeper (Fleet Manager) not to pay. If the hire/lease firm gets a postal PCN and names you as the hirer, that is a good thing as it removes them from the loop entirely and then you can follow the above advice as appropriate to your case.

Here are some examples of a successful first appeal for company cars/lease/hire/rental cases. These examples relate to a situation where the PPC has (pretty much ALWAYS!) failed to send the required documents to the hirer with the postal Notice:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5703794

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69859059#post69859059

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69767583#post69767583


Thanks to Edna Basher for the template appeals above.

If the Notice has been sent to a lease firm and then they have named your own company (not an individual) and you (the Director or Fleet Dept) want to appeal as the company, here is Edna Basher's latest draft appeal for a Fleet Manager (hirer company) to use:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5881338

Worked the same day! :D
PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD

Replies

  • edited 28 March 2020 at 10:38PM
    CrabmanCrabman Forumite, Board Guide
    9.9K Posts
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts I'm a Volunteer Board Guide Combo Breaker
    ✭✭✭✭
    edited 28 March 2020 at 10:38PM
    This thread is for general information only.

    Please do not post questions about your parking tickets in this thread.


    For personalised help and guidance from our wonderful forum regulars (for free :D) please start your own thread by clicking on this link:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/post/discussion/parking-tickets-fines-parking
    I'm a Board Guide on the Savings & Investments, ISAs & Tax-free Savings, Public Transport & Cycling, Motoring and Parking Fines, Tickets & Parking Boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Board Guides are not moderators & don't read every post. If you spot a contentious or illegal post then please report it to [email protected] (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com

  • edited 16 November 2020 at 11:54AM
    Were_DoomedWere_Doomed Forumite
    700 Posts
    500 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    ✭✭
    edited 16 November 2020 at 11:54AM
    Is C-m still updating this thread, or does it need closing again?

    PS - feel free to delete this post once C-m confirms.
This discussion has been closed.
Latest News and Guides