Advice on side access

ThisIsWeird

swingaloo said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Well, it can't be said the OP doesn't have options.
Swingaloo, could you explain your 'sensible' approach please.

Well as others have said, the first thing to do is check out the deeds for both properties and establish exactly who can go where. Then once armed with the full correct facts have an adult discussion with the neighbour and find a compromise that suits both.  

Thanks for the clarification, Swingaloo. I can confirm that this is exactly what I have suggested to Rommie. Exactly.

As to why my perturbing use of emphasis, I try to respond to each individual OP's needs in each individual situation, and have also learned from my own personal experience what works when dealing with such folk. 

Rommie comes across as a gentle and sensitive cove and finds this difficult to deal with, to the point they are considering ignoring it - which I am certain you will agree would be a very bad move indeed?

So, my loooong posts are aimed at the OP, and try to suggest what to do, and what not to do, even going as far as to suggest what to say - often the most tricky thing to manage. And my use of a mix of emphasis is to, well, emphasise the key points that need emphasising.

I know what it's like to deal with unreasonable folk, and never fail to be amazed at their ability to drag you down convoluted arguments designed to avoid them confronting the actual issue. 

That explains the detail in my posts on this thread, including the emphasis of key points. It is designed to help the OP, and possibly others in a similar position.

BarelySentientAI

ThisIsWeird said:

swingaloo said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Well, it can't be said the OP doesn't have options.
Swingaloo, could you explain your 'sensible' approach please.

Well as others have said, the first thing to do is check out the deeds for both properties and establish exactly who can go where. Then once armed with the full correct facts have an adult discussion with the neighbour and find a compromise that suits both.  

Thanks for the clarification, Swingaloo. I can confirm that this is exactly what I have suggested to Rommie. Exactly.

To be fair, some of your suggested wording is a lot closer to belittling the neighbour than an adult discussion.

"I'll be happy to discuss this later when you've stopped being so silly"

"So, are you going to carry on being silly about this"

Being "astonished" that someone wasn't respecting the "very considerable favour"

"Refuse access unless they show appropriate gratitude."

A neighbour who is already acting as Rommie's neighbour appears to isn't going to suddenly become rational because you call them silly and demand more respect.  They're far more likely to react in the way swingaloo intimates.

ThisIsWeird

BarelySentientAI said:

ThisIsWeird said:

swingaloo said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Well, it can't be said the OP doesn't have options.
Swingaloo, could you explain your 'sensible' approach please.

Well as others have said, the first thing to do is check out the deeds for both properties and establish exactly who can go where. Then once armed with the full correct facts have an adult discussion with the neighbour and find a compromise that suits both.  

Thanks for the clarification, Swingaloo. I can confirm that this is exactly what I have suggested to Rommie. Exactly.

To be fair, some of your suggested wording is a lot closer to belittling the neighbour than an adult discussion.

"I'll be happy to discuss this later when you've stopped being so silly"

"So, are you going to carry on being silly about this"

Being "astonished" that someone wasn't respecting the "very considerable favour"

"Refuse access unless they show appropriate gratitude."

A neighbour who is already acting as Rommie's neighbour appears to isn't going to suddenly become rational because you call them silly and demand more respect.  They're far more likely to react in the way swingaloo intimates.

Yes, in the worst case scenario that they are being silly.

You know that this is not the start of the approach I suggested. And you also know that this neighbour, and son, are not being reasonable.

BarelySentientAI

ThisIsWeird said:

BarelySentientAI said:

ThisIsWeird said:

swingaloo said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Well, it can't be said the OP doesn't have options.
Swingaloo, could you explain your 'sensible' approach please.

Well as others have said, the first thing to do is check out the deeds for both properties and establish exactly who can go where. Then once armed with the full correct facts have an adult discussion with the neighbour and find a compromise that suits both.  

Thanks for the clarification, Swingaloo. I can confirm that this is exactly what I have suggested to Rommie. Exactly.

To be fair, some of your suggested wording is a lot closer to belittling the neighbour than an adult discussion.

"I'll be happy to discuss this later when you've stopped being so silly"

"So, are you going to carry on being silly about this"

Being "astonished" that someone wasn't respecting the "very considerable favour"

"Refuse access unless they show appropriate gratitude."

A neighbour who is already acting as Rommie's neighbour appears to isn't going to suddenly become rational because you call them silly and demand more respect.  They're far more likely to react in the way swingaloo intimates.

Yes, in the worst case scenario that they are being silly.

You know that this is not the start of the approach I suggested. And you also know that this neighbour, and son, are not being reasonable.

 "So, are you going to carry on being silly about this, or are you going to start showing some appreciation for me allowing you to use my path?!" - was in the very first paragraph of suggested wording, immediately after the suggestion that the OP should get serious and speak to them.  That looks very much like the start of the approach you suggested.

And it's precisely because they are not being reasonable that calling them a silly billy is more likely to get retaliation than rationality.

ThisIsWeird

BarelySentientAI said:

  "So, are you going to carry on being silly about this, or are you going to start showing some appreciation for me allowing you to use my path?!" - was in the very first paragraph of suggested wording, immediately after the suggestion that the OP should get serious and speak to them.  That looks very much like the start of the approach you suggested.

And it's precisely because they are not being reasonable that calling them a silly billy is more likely to get retaliation than rationality.

? My first reply on this thread is shown below. Do you have any issue with that content?

I have also made it absolutely clear that Rommie should consider a compromise, and that is continuing to allow the neighbour access, but with caveats on behaviour, especially by his son - and them acknowledging they do not have a legal right. 

Subsequent replies by me - one from which you extracted the out-of-context post above - were based on subsequent comments, and different potential scenarios. 

"Hi Rommie.

As FreeBear says, check your neighbour's deeds too - it is possible for it to be mentioned on only one set of deeds!

From what you describe, tho', I reckon it would be unlikely, since they have their own potential route down there - it wouldn't make sense for an additional RoW to exist for them across your land.

But - CHECK!

Next thing, download and store all the conversations you have recorded. Keep them secure, and don't share them with anyone - unless authorised (ie, this becomes a legal issue). Begin a log of events, dated and timed, and refer to the recordings where relevant.

Make sure that all future conversations are also recorded. If necessary, have your phone set to record whenever you think you'll be having a 'conversation'.

And, right now, before bed, check your house insurance to see if it has Legal Protection included.

So, what to do? Check their deeds. Assuming there's no mention of a RoW over any of your land, and that their 'red' boundary line only goes around their property and doesn't overlap yours with any other colour or reference, and that your deeds are ditto, then print out a copy of each of these deeds plans.

If you have LegProt, then call them up for guidance on how to approach this - this is free, and they are (supposedly) the pros.

But, in general, I'd be ready and armed with these maps, should you need to have a further conversation. If you do, then run through your head beforehand what you will say, and I'd suggest; kiss, and ask questions.

So, instead of telling him things like, "This map shows that it's ours...", you make it more like, "Can you see the red outline of our property? Yes? And that's the boundary of my land - yes? And, see - there's the red boundary line around your property - yes? See where the two red lines meet between us, that's the boundary between us, and I think you can see that it runs just along here, down there, between our sheds/garden/garages/whatevs (point to the ground and all these features as you say this...) - what do you think?"

Like that, step by painful step.

Calm...friendly...smiley...matter-of-fact...but insistent.

If he doesn't fully acknowledge - ie nod, agree, 'yeah' - each point you are making, then ask it again. If he starts to ramble about "I need access...it's always been like this..." or anything else, just stare at him until he stops, and literally start again at the previous point; "You see this ref boundary line, yes...". Just as if you are talking to a very young child who is struggling with sums.
Don't be side-stepped. Stick to the actual points.

For example, if he says, "I need to be able to go down this path!", the temptation will be to react to that point, and say things like he can go down his own! Instead, keep it on the discernible facts as shown on the maps - you simply want - need - him to acknowledge where the boundary between you lies, and then that there's nothing on either side to suggest an 'extra' pathway that either of you can use! So, bring it repeatedly back to this boundary.

Then it's, "Is there anything in your deeds that suggests you have a path down my side of this boundary line?" Again, I suspect this will take a few attempts whilst he goes on about what he 'needs' and has 'always done', but you need to repeat the point, in the form of that question, until he admits 'no'. "Uh-huh! But is there anything in your deeds to show...", or, "Can you point to your deeds where it suggests that you can...". 

Don't tell him - ask him. As soon as he agrees, 'yes' to any of your points, he should be defused from arguing at least that point again. If you, instead, tell him stuff, he will 'argue', and keep doing so! Don't be sidelined! Stop, wait, repeat!

And make damned sure all of this is recorded.

That leaves the potential issue of 'prescriptive easement', which I suspect just won't be an issue at all, mainly due to the fact that the neighbour does not require access to this route - he ain't landlocked - so was only using is as it was a wee bitty easier, but also because you were allowing him to do this, as was the previous owner. To gain a prescriptive easement, the guy would have to provide evidence of a continuous, uninterupted and unhindered access, done without the owner's permission, and (I think) knowledge - that's a very tall order. Anyhoo, don't bring this up. If he does, then it's, "Don't be silly - I LET you use it, but now I need to sort my boundary properly."

You remain smiley and calm at all times, but insistent. Don't argue, don't discuss, don't justify - other than, 'This is what the deeds say. These are the facts. I can no more walk across your garden than you can mine.'
Remind yourself that he is wrong, and you are right. Remind yourself that this issue cannot continue as it is. Remind yourself that if he wants to fall out with you, that's his call, and that there is nothing you can do about it if he does. You be friendly and normal.
And record it... 

Amend all of the above according to what you are comfortable with, but I hope you understand the gist of what I am saying? Kiss. Facts. Question.
Your LP might suggest something else - a letter, for example - and it's probably important to follow their advice since they will ultimately be looking out for you, but the above is what I suggest should you hopefully have a friendly chat."

theoretica

 Looking at the semidetached layout, it appears to me that it might be the sort of development where there would be shared access between the houses so everyone gets access to their garden from the front as well as the back.  Except for your neighbour who has drawn the short straw because of the layout.  Is the alley between your semi detached neighbour and their other neighbour shared? How old are these properties? I wonder if there might be an original plan available tto show if a developer messed up.

Not that it changes the matter of it being your land, but it might be politic to acknowledge that you can see why the neighbour feels hard done by and perhaps should have words with their conveyancing solicitor about why they didn't pick it up.  It can help to find someone who is blame worthy and not present!

BarelySentientAI

ThisIsWeird said:

BarelySentientAI said:

  "So, are you going to carry on being silly about this, or are you going to start showing some appreciation for me allowing you to use my path?!" - was in the very first paragraph of suggested wording, immediately after the suggestion that the OP should get serious and speak to them.  That looks very much like the start of the approach you suggested.

And it's precisely because they are not being reasonable that calling them a silly billy is more likely to get retaliation than rationality.

? My first reply on this thread is shown below. Do you have any issue with that content?

Thank you for demonstrating the point so aptly.  Couldn't have done better myself.

swingaloo

ThisIsWeird said:

swingaloo said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Well, it can't be said the OP doesn't have options.
Swingaloo, could you explain your 'sensible' approach please.

Well as others have said, the first thing to do is check out the deeds for both properties and establish exactly who can go where. Then once armed with the full correct facts have an adult discussion with the neighbour and find a compromise that suits both.  

Thanks for the clarification, Swingaloo. I can confirm that this is exactly what I have suggested to Rommie. Exactly.

Hmm, I think you need to re-read your posts because what you have suggested is far from having an adult discussion. In fact you have advised the Op to be as confrontational as possible and belittle the neighbour completely.

ThisIsWeird

BarelySentientAI said:

ThisIsWeird said:

BarelySentientAI said:

  "So, are you going to carry on being silly about this, or are you going to start showing some appreciation for me allowing you to use my path?!" - was in the very first paragraph of suggested wording, immediately after the suggestion that the OP should get serious and speak to them.  That looks very much like the start of the approach you suggested.

And it's precisely because they are not being reasonable that calling them a silly billy is more likely to get retaliation than rationality.

? My first reply on this thread is shown below. Do you have any issue with that content?

Thank you for demonstrating the point so aptly.  Couldn't have done better myself.

That is beneath you, AI.

Y'accuse. J'accuse. With apologies to the Olympics.

thegreenone

@Rommie2021 What do the rear gates (yellow) open onto?