We buy any car

user1977

m0bov said:

Report it as stolen, then claim on your insurance. They will recoup their costs from the driver.

Which policies cover "theft" where you willingly handed over the keys to the "thief"?

Grumpy_chap

user1977 said:

Which policies cover "theft" where you willingly handed over the keys to the "thief"?

In this case, the OP would not be claiming on a motor policy (as such) as it has been explained (AIUI) that the vehicles have the V5 registered in the name of the individual cab driver, thus allowing the drivers to obtain insurance more easily in their own name.  Presume the OP's firm requires proof of that insurance and that it covers hire & reward.
This is unusual as I have had company cars, where the car has been registered to the company but the insurance in my own name and there was no issue with obtaining insurance in that manner by simply answering the questions honestly.

The drivers pay the OP's taxi firm a monthly fee, which includes the provision of the car.  The OP's firm would therefore need to have a commercial policy that is covering for the eventuality of a driver not returning a car as should happen, rather than a regular motor policy.

Alderbank

No reason why there can't be more than one policy on the same car.

The OP's company could for instance quite legally have a fire & theft only policy to cover the possibility that the driver might torch it or sell it.

The whole business plan sounds bonkers to me. I assume these cars are near the end of their economic life and hired to drivers who would struggle to pass any normal finance checks.

But a broker who would underwrite that F&T policy would be equally bonkers (in my opinion)

PHK

Can I point out that lending  is only a regulated activity according to the Regulated Activities Order if it’s a mortgage or lending money to a consumer (and even then there are exceptions eg pay in three, wage advances etc). 

Lending to a business or trade is not regulated and the FCA won’t be interested. 

If the cars are valued over £25,000 and the use is for business then the Business Purpose Exemption applies. So even if the driver is a sole trader (which means they are treated as a consumer) the FCA wont be interested. 

user1977

Grumpy_chap said:

user1977 said:

Which policies cover "theft" where you willingly handed over the keys to the "thief"?

The OP's firm would therefore need to have a commercial policy that is covering for the eventuality of a driver not returning a car as should happen.

But is that something which is readily insurable? I'd imagine the insurers might regard it as an inevitable risk of the OP's business model (and/or prone to fraud).

Grumpy_chap

user1977 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

user1977 said:

Which policies cover "theft" where you willingly handed over the keys to the "thief"?

The OP's firm would therefore need to have a commercial policy that is covering for the eventuality of a driver not returning a car as should happen.

But is that something which is readily insurable? I'd imagine the insurers might regard it as an inevitable risk of the OP's business model (and/or prone to fraud).

I am not an expert in insurance, but I suspect that is an insurable risk and also a common commercial insurance product.
Consider, for example, short term hire (HERTZ / AVIS) and long-term lease agreements (Alphabet / Nationwide Vehicle Contracts).  Both willingly hand over the car keys to the driver, who might then go "rogue". 

AIUI, the long term lease agreements are registered as finance against the car (and the V5 in the lease company name) which would mitigate against the sale in the manner of the event described in this thread.  However, I suspect there is still an insured back-up in place - to cover the lease companies against the driver who damages the car, defaults and simply says "have the car back" then goes bankrupt.  That insurance probably works as a final back-stop and only covers losses after the lease company has exhausted loss recovery against the individual / company concerned.

There are contributors to this area of the forum that may see this and have better knowledge of the types of commercial / corporate insurance that would be available to cover this type of loss.

Okell

This isn't a consumer rights issue. 

It's a business issue.

If the OP (or their employer) is in business they should be retaining legal advice as part of their costs of doing business - not be asking for help on a consumer advice website.

Jumblebumble

andrewb0101 said:

Alderbank said:

andrewb0101 said:

Short story ... As a business we buy cars for licensed private hire drivers. We put the V5 in their name so it is easy for them to license and insure each year. We hold the bill of sale and invoice for the vehicle as the legal owner. One driver has just sold our car to We buy any car without our permission and they have bought it without checking who the legal owner is ... The police say it is civil matter 

The story is a bit too short for me...

You buy the cars then lease them on a contract basis to the drivers?
If so, presumably you and each driver enter into a contract covering the use and eventual return of the vehicle?
What are the T&Cs of that contract? (It is a B2B contract, no consumer rights).

If a driver has breached a term of the contract eg. by not returning the vehicle when required than that is a civil matter. Ultimately your company might have to take him to a civil court to try to recover your losses.

WBAC normally check the various trade databases to confirm history and ownership of vehicles they buy in, they don't just trust the word of whoever brings a car in.
How do you know a driver has sold your car to WBAC? Did the driver tell you (sounds unlikely) or have WBAC traced you?
Presumably your taxis have a plate affixed somewhere saying 'This vehicle is on lease from Andrewb101 Motors'?

Yes, we buy the cars outright. In this case it was a BMW 7 series. We put it out on a rent to buy basis on a contract over 3 years with weekly payments. The contract clearly states in 3 separate places that ownership does not pass until all payments are made. In this case £9.800 was due. The driver went abroad and did not pay for a few weeks ane when contacted said the vehicle was safe in a friends garage. Some 4 weeks later we decided that something was amiss and reported the car stolen. The police found the vehicle in a car park in London and seized it. Someone else also reported it stolen and the police when they investigated found it had been sold to WBAC by the driver, WBAC sold it British Car Auctions who sold it to a dealer who sold it to an end user. At no point did WBAC ask the driver to see a bill of sale or any other proof like an invoice etc from a dealer. I would imagine that WBAC were not advised by the driver that the vehicle had been a private hire (Licensed) vehicle which would have slashed the price they paid him if he had filled out their agreement honestly. 

WBAC possibly consider as I do that asking someone to produce an invoice or a bill of sale is a complete waste of time since they have no way of checking it is genuine if the dealership no longer trades (or never existed in the first place)

Alderbank

Jumblebumble said:

andrewb0101 said:

Alderbank said:

andrewb0101 said:

Short story ... As a business we buy cars for licensed private hire drivers. We put the V5 in their name so it is easy for them to license and insure each year. We hold the bill of sale and invoice for the vehicle as the legal owner. One driver has just sold our car to We buy any car without our permission and they have bought it without checking who the legal owner is ... The police say it is civil matter 

The story is a bit too short for me...

You buy the cars then lease them on a contract basis to the drivers?
If so, presumably you and each driver enter into a contract covering the use and eventual return of the vehicle?
What are the T&Cs of that contract? (It is a B2B contract, no consumer rights).

If a driver has breached a term of the contract eg. by not returning the vehicle when required than that is a civil matter. Ultimately your company might have to take him to a civil court to try to recover your losses.

WBAC normally check the various trade databases to confirm history and ownership of vehicles they buy in, they don't just trust the word of whoever brings a car in.
How do you know a driver has sold your car to WBAC? Did the driver tell you (sounds unlikely) or have WBAC traced you?
Presumably your taxis have a plate affixed somewhere saying 'This vehicle is on lease from Andrewb101 Motors'?

Yes, we buy the cars outright. In this case it was a BMW 7 series. We put it out on a rent to buy basis on a contract over 3 years with weekly payments. The contract clearly states in 3 separate places that ownership does not pass until all payments are made. In this case £9.800 was due. The driver went abroad and did not pay for a few weeks ane when contacted said the vehicle was safe in a friends garage. Some 4 weeks later we decided that something was amiss and reported the car stolen. The police found the vehicle in a car park in London and seized it. Someone else also reported it stolen and the police when they investigated found it had been sold to WBAC by the driver, WBAC sold it British Car Auctions who sold it to a dealer who sold it to an end user. At no point did WBAC ask the driver to see a bill of sale or any other proof like an invoice etc from a dealer. I would imagine that WBAC were not advised by the driver that the vehicle had been a private hire (Licensed) vehicle which would have slashed the price they paid him if he had filled out their agreement honestly. 

WBAC possibly consider as I do that asking someone to produce an invoice or a bill of sale is a complete waste of time since they have no way of checking it is genuine if the dealership no longer trades (or never existed in the first place)

Agreed^^^.

Even a genuine invoice or bill of sale does nothing to prove subsequent ownership. Many cars are bought then sold on within days.

I must have a bundle of a dozen bills of sale for cars I have bought (and later sold) over the years. Doesn't prove who owns any of them.

Hoenir

user1977 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

user1977 said:

Which policies cover "theft" where you willingly handed over the keys to the "thief"?

The OP's firm would therefore need to have a commercial policy that is covering for the eventuality of a driver not returning a car as should happen.

But is that something which is readily insurable? I'd imagine the insurers might regard it as an inevitable risk of the OP's business model (and/or prone to fraud).

The entire business model needs revisiting. Open to abuse.