Charge Notice for stopping at red light - Bristol Airport

Le_Kirk

Drivad said:

Only if the case proceeds to court and you lose the court case and you fail to pay what the court demands in the timescale allowed is there any chance of a lasting judgment adversely affecting your ability to raise credit.

1) Thanks for this, but this is completely counter to what the National Debtline told me. They advised that failure to pay the PCN already leave a black mark on my credit score and a failure to win in court would result in a 6 year restriction on borrowing. Have I been misinformed here? If the CCJ only applies if the court instructed charges aren’t paid, then perhaps it’s a risk worth taking. 

2) I appreciate the correspondence and support, but it’s hard not to feel intimidated and beaten down by these scumbags. 

1). Well they are wrong and need to be told so; how can it be on your credit score, it is not a debt yet, only a speculative invoice?  It is not a debt until a judge says so.
2) That is what they are relying on, scaremongering tactics and frightening stories!

Fruitcake

Drivad said:

Only if the case proceeds to court and you lose the court case and you fail to pay what the court demands in the timescale allowed is there any chance of a lasting judgment adversely affecting your ability to raise credit.

Thanks for this, but this is completely counter to what the National Debtline told me. They advised that failure to pay the PCN already leave a black mark on my credit score and a failure to win in court would result in a 6 year restriction on borrowing. Have I been misinformed here? If the CCJ only applies if the court instructed charges aren’t paid, then perhaps it’s a risk worth taking. 

I appreciate the correspondence and support, but it’s hard not to feel intimidated and beaten down by these scumbags. 

As already mentioned, yes, you have been misinformed. 

I repeat, "You cannot get a CCJ, nor can a loss in court affect your ability to obtain credit be affected unless YOU allow it to happen."

Nellymoser

Shocking. Completely agree they need to be told their advice is wrong. Email the National Debtline a complaint, detail the advice you were given and provide them with the facts. Tell them receiving the wrong advice from their advisor caused you unnecessary alarm and distress.

Gr1pr

Drivad said:

Only if the case proceeds to court and you lose the court case and you fail to pay what the court demands in the timescale allowed is there any chance of a lasting judgment adversely affecting your ability to raise credit.

1) Thanks for this, but this is completely counter to what the National Debtline told me.

2) They advised that failure to pay the PCN already leave a black mark on my credit score and a failure to win in court would result in a 6 year restriction on borrowing.

1) this is what they should have told you, in 3) below 

3)  They advised that failure to pay the.  PCN already     CCJ within the 30 days allowed by the court will leave a black mark on my credit score and a failure to pay the CCJ promptly.   win in court   would also result in a 6 year restriction on borrowing. ( and various other issues arising from a poor credit score, like mobile phone contracts, financial products and services etc.  ). Payment in full before the court imposed deadline would mean that there would be no issues caused by the court case. 

Coupon-mad

Has anyone had any success of paying under protest and claiming the costs back in small claims court?

No - this is NOT POSSIBLE (and is in fact stupid advice that consumers sometimes find) but I am aware it is among incorrect advice that is out there from Citizens' Advice and National Debtline.

The debt charities are wrong to scaremonger about that and also wrong to suggest that 'high costs' are risked.

Defending a small claim does NOT affect your credit rating at all.

Nor does ignoring debt demands pre-action. It would be different with certain utility bills where they use debt collector letters but this ISN'T that dirt of alleged debt.  This is a case that is not a debt until a court has found it is, by way of a judgment but you automatically get that removed (if you lose at a hearing you'd pay).

Defending a parking claim doesn't affect people and will not jeopardise your move (albeit when you move, if that's before a court claim has concluded, you must tell the scammers, but that's common sense).

Think about it: why would we advise people (for well over a decade of success here) to "ignore debt collectors and ALWAYS to defend a parking court claim" if that advice potentially could affect their credit rating?

We don't do that to people. You are safe.

Drivad

FYI Imanaged to get a write up in the guardian on this today. Still no backing down from Bristol Airport!

https://www.theguardian.com/money/article/2024/aug/10/airport-parking-charge-passengers?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

fisherjim

Then they are as bad as Citizens advice on this.

Some years ago a dimwit debt company tried buying so called "debts" off PPC's to pursue in their own right. They were soon up a creak without a paddle and were basically shown the door, as these are not debts, only speculative invoices.

Fruitcake

Drivad said:

FYI Imanaged to get a write up in the guardian on this today. Still no backing down from Bristol Airport!

https://www.theguardian.com/money/article/2024/aug/10/airport-parking-charge-passengers?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

That's a reasonably good report, and very useful.

I note that BA Ltd still don't get it. Motorists are being punished for the actions of passengers outside the control of the driver, and where vehicles have stopped at Stop signs, Give Way signs, and even where scamvoices have been issued to vehicles that were proven to be outside the area where VCS are contracted to operate.

Coupon-mad

Drivad said:

FYI Imanaged to get a write up in the guardian on this today. Still no backing down from Bristol Airport!

https://www.theguardian.com/money/article/2024/aug/10/airport-parking-charge-passengers?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Well done for getting this attention.

Well worth getting cases in the press and lobbying MPs, while we anticipate Labour's plans for the overdue Statutory Code and proper scrutiny regime. 

Drivad

Hi all, quick update.

I received a Letter of Claim from DCB Legal yesterday. I sent them the following email: 

Dear DCB Legal,

I acknowledge receipt of your Letter of Claim dated 29th August 2024.

Please note that my address for service, assuming you intend to proceed without undue delay, is as follows: XXXXXX. I require that any previous addresses be removed from your records in accordance with data protection regulations.

I wish to make it clear that the alleged debt is disputed, and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended. No contract can have been entered into, as any signage at the location is prohibitory. It is embarrassing that a firm of supposed legal representatives does not understand this concept.

It has also come to my attention that the amount claimed has been substantially increased by an additional £70. The Government has previously referred to such charges as 'extorting money from motorists,' and I share this view. Therefore, I expect you to refrain from sending any further correspondence justifying this inflated claim without addressing the specific points I raise below.

Under the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims, I am entitled to request specific information, and I ask that you provide clear answers to the following questions:

1. Am I correct in understanding that the additional £70 is being claimed as a 'Debt Recovery' fee? If so, is this amount inclusive or exclusive of VAT? If it is inclusive, please explain why I am being asked to cover the VAT liability of the operator.

2. Regarding the principal sum allegedly due under the PCN: Is this being claimed as damages, or is it intended to be pleaded as consideration for a service (i.e., parking)?

3. I will require evidence of a contract flowing from the landowner, Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan (OTPP), through their managing agent, Bristol Airport Ltd, to your client, evidencing their contractual right to issue PCNs in their own name.

I look forward to your prompt and full response to these queries.

Yours faithfully,

to which they have replied with: 

We write in response to your correspondence received in our office dated 4th September 2024.

We now respond to the same as follows.


The address we have on our records is your current address - XXXXXXX.

Any previous addresses have been removed.

The HMRC ‘VAT Supply and Consideration manual’ (VATSC06140), which was last updated on 02 September 2020, confirmed that parking charge notices falls out of the scope of VAT. There is no requirement for a VAT invoice to be issued to you.

The sum added is a contribution to the actual costs incurred by our client as a result of your non-payment. Our client’s employees have spent time and material attempting to recover the debt. This is not our client’s usual business, and the resources could have been better spent in other areas of the business. Had you of paid as per the Contract, there would have been no need for recovery action so the amount due would not have increased.

In accordance with the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice, where the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) becomes overdue and before Court proceedings have commenced, a reasonable sum may be added for the debt recovery fees. BPA - 24.1b “Where a Parking Charge becomes overdue and before Court Proceedings have commenced, a reasonable sum (which covers the cost of recovering debt) may be added for the debt recovery fees. This sum must not exceed £70 unless prior approval from the BPA has been granted”. The correct recovery fees have been added and will not be removed.

Please see the attached contract agreement.

You now have 30 days from the date of this email to make payment of £170.00. Failure to make payment will result in a Claim being issued against you without any further reference.

Payment can be made via bank transfer to our designated client account: -

Account Name: DCB Legal Ltd Client Account 
Sort Code: 20-24-09 
Account Number: 60964441
You must quote the correct case reference (XXXXX) when making payment. If you do not, we may be unable to correctly allocate the payment. If further action is taken by us as a result of an incorrect reference being quoted, you will be liable for any further fees or costs incurred.

Alternatively, you can contact DCB Legal Ltd on 0203 838 7038 to make payment over the telephone or online at https://dcblegal.co.uk/response/pay-online/.

 
Kind Regards, 

 

Shahera Begum

Administration Associate

DCB Legal Ltd 

The contract that they've sent me can be found here: https://imgur.com/a/R0i2Oa3

I've reported them to HMRC and send the following reply: 

Hi Shahera, 

Thanks for your prompt reply, but you seem to have missed a few points. 

Under the PAP I am entitled to specific answers to these questions, so please share full answers at your earliest convenience. 

• My initial question was about whether the additional £70 'debt recovery fee' was inclusive or exclusive of VAT, not the original parking charge. Please clarify whether the recovery fee of £70 is inclusive of exclusive of VAT, or whether it's VAT-exempt as you seem to have indicated above. 

• Point 2 has been completely ignored, so I'll share it again: "Regarding the principal sum allegedly due under the PCN: Is this being claimed as damages, or is it intended to be pleaded as consideration for a service (i.e., parking)?"

• You've shared 3 pages of what, according to the numbering in the footers, is an 8 page document. In addition, the term specified within the contract lapsed in January 2023. Furthermore, the contract you have shared is signed by Bristol Airport Ltd, with no reference to the landowner. Please provide the full and valid contract flowing from the landowner, Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan (OTPP), through their managing agent, Bristol Airport Ltd, to your client, evidencing their contractual right to issue PCNs in their own name.

• You've alluded to the BPA Code of Conduct, but I note that VCS LTD aren't listed on the BPA's Approved Operators. Can you confirm whether VCS Ltd are bound by the BPA's Code of Conduct?

In addition I bring to your attention the following points that I will be including in my defence:

• Airport Byelaws apply therefore location where the alleged event occurred is not relevant land and Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 does not apply therefore the registered keeper cannot be held liable.

• VCS are not the landowner. VCS do not have a contract with or flowing from the landowner and therefore have no standing to issue charges in their own name.

• The vehicle was stopped at Traffic Lights/Pedestrian/Zebra Crossing showing a red light. The VCS Images are clearly showing pedestrians crossing in-front of the vehicle. Stopping at a pedestrian crossing is required by UK law and is not parking.

• A driver cannot be held liable for the unexpected actions of a passenger whilst the vehicle was stopped at Red Traffic Lights/Pedestrian Crossing.

• Part B2 of VCS's Keeper At Date Of Event (KADOE) contract allows VCS to obtain data only for purposes related to trespassing, abandonment and parking charges, not for "stopping", and especially not for stopping  at a traffic lights/pedestrian crossings therefore VCS are therefore in breach of contract.

• The term “No Stopping”, as written on the signs, is forbidding. The driver stopped as required at the traffic lights/pedestrian crossing, therefore their actions were as required by the airport byelaws and the road traffic act. The driver cannot agree to a contract of no-stopping when the law requires them to do so.

• The Interpretation Act states that it shall apply to the interpretation of byelaws as if they apply to the interpretation of an Act of Parliament. The Road Traffic Act shall therefore apply to roads through the airport where a road traffic order does not apply as if such a traffic order did apply. Road traffic orders require motorists to stop at red traffic lights/pedestrian crossings.

I await your response.