Septic tank (shared) upgrade - what would you do?

WIAWSNB

AJC211 said:

I’ve decided not to push them on the matter as 

a) I don’t want to share with them any more 

b) it won’t get me anywhere.

My garden is easier for access because they have a shrubbery in the way. New easement because it won’t be a like-for-like replacement of the old one. 35% because of the inconvenience of it being in their garden. No pump because they simply don’t trust it not to go wrong. Basically if it’s going to be in their property they insist it has to be what THEY want (yep even if it’s shared ownership). They absolutely will
not budge on that. To be honest it makes my decision easier!

What they haven’t done is clarify what they plan to do about the fact that the existing drain that crosses my garden, that they want to continue to use, is a combined drain and has been forever - it takes both soil/sewage and rainwater. Either they’re ok with that and will
have rainwater in their system, or they need a separate soil pipe, or they need to divert the rainwater elsewhere so it doesn’t go into the new STP…..Instead, what they’ve said is that they’re happy for the rainwater that comes their side of the fence to go into the existing combined pipe (ie they can continue to use their historical right to drain rainwater into it), but that my right to use this pipe for rainwater must end. Which I don’t really understand the reasoning for. 

As a comparison I happily put a soakaway in the back at my expense that took rainwater for both my house and next door, didn’t get all arsey about, just did what was best for the cottages 🤷‍♀️

Ok, so they have 'justified' their conditions.

This still comes back to the status quo - the ST is on one person's land, all three are connected to it and share the costs, and the deeds describe all this. The ST needs to be replaced by a STP. That's it. How will the easement be changed? Why does it need to be? It already covers repair and maintenance.

The decisions on the type of STP, the handling of the rain and ground water, have to be taken mutually. Yes, you will be outnumbered 2:1, so will likely lose out on the make and model of STP, but the rain/ground water issue will almost certainly be excluded by manufacturers from their models, but you can check this with whichever one they are inclined to go with. And you dissent with any attempt to fit an unsuitable STP, or one installed in the incorrect manner. You outline this in an evidenced way. Should they try and bludgeon their way through your garden, you call the police, and you get your LP to C&D them.

What do you mean by, "To be honest it makes my decision easier!" Are you still wanting to go solo? Each with your own STP and soakaway?

AJC211

WIAWSNB said:

AJC211 said:

I’ve decided not to push them on the matter as 

a) I don’t want to share with them any more 

b) it won’t get me anywhere.

My garden is easier for access because they have a shrubbery in the way. New easement because it won’t be a like-for-like replacement of the old one. 35% because of the inconvenience of it being in their garden. No pump because they simply don’t trust it not to go wrong. Basically if it’s going to be in their property they insist it has to be what THEY want (yep even if it’s shared ownership). They absolutely will
not budge on that. To be honest it makes my decision easier!

What they haven’t done is clarify what they plan to do about the fact that the existing drain that crosses my garden, that they want to continue to use, is a combined drain and has been forever - it takes both soil/sewage and rainwater. Either they’re ok with that and will
have rainwater in their system, or they need a separate soil pipe, or they need to divert the rainwater elsewhere so it doesn’t go into the new STP…..Instead, what they’ve said is that they’re happy for the rainwater that comes their side of the fence to go into the existing combined pipe (ie they can continue to use their historical right to drain rainwater into it), but that my right to use this pipe for rainwater must end. Which I don’t really understand the reasoning for. 

As a comparison I happily put a soakaway in the back at my expense that took rainwater for both my house and next door, didn’t get all arsey about, just did what was best for the cottages 🤷‍♀️

Ok, so they have 'justified' their conditions.

This still comes back to the status quo - the ST is on one person's land, all three are connected to it and share the costs, and the deeds describe all this. The ST needs to be replaced by a STP. That's it. How will the easement be changed? Why does it need to be? It already covers repair and maintenance.

The decisions on the type of STP, the handling of the rain and ground water, have to be taken mutually. Yes, you will be outnumbered 2:1, so will likely lose out on the make and model of STP, but the rain/ground water issue will almost certainly be excluded by manufacturers from their models, but you can check this with whichever one they are inclined to go with. And you dissent with any attempt to fit an unsuitable STP, or one installed in the incorrect manner. You outline this in an evidenced way. Should they try and bludgeon their way through your garden, you call the police, and you get your LP to C&D them.

What do you mean by, "To be honest it makes my decision easier!" Are you still wanting to go solo? Each with your own STP and soakaway?

I have the choice between
1 fighting them legally to keep to them current easement and replace like for like under the easement…but there’s not much case law so it’s possible they’d argue as win based on the fact the the STP isn’t a like for like replacement, because it would be much bigger, may need different pipe work (septic tank built badly!), and would need electrical supply which ST doesn’t have. So it would be a risk and really mess up relations. 

2 jumping ship and getting my own system

I’ve chosen 2

They want to continue sharing either side of me, and they want to use the existing combined drain to cross my garden - which takes both rainwater and sewage. They’re welcome to do that but I don’t want them at a later date saying “oh, our STP isn’t coping with all this rainwater, we now want to put in a new pipe across your land for just the sewage, or put a soak way in where the rainwater comes down your house so it doesn’t join our STP”.
Basically they haven’t thought their plan through, because they haven’t factored in that the drain has always been a combined one. It’s their problem I think but if we’re all digging up our gardens it makes sense to me that we reach agreement of a future proof way of dealing with the rainwater at the same time 🤷‍♀️

WIAWSNB

I'm at a bit of a loss, here.

There is no 'fighting them legally' here afaIcs. The existing deeds are clear. If any part of the existing ST fails or needs repair, then the deeds say you share the cost of fixing it equally. If a part fails beyond repair, then it's patently obvious that you will need a new part - even if that means a whole ST. If a part becomes obsolete - as STs have - then it's patently obvious that you will need to replace it with a suitable alternative, in this case a STP. If STPs are not designed to handle rain and ground water, then it's patently obvious that alternative provision needs to be made for this.

These are surely all statements of the bleedin' obvious? Nothing contentious there. No challenge to the deeds.

If either of the other two attempt to override these obvious statements, then you call on your LegProt.

This is entirely your call to make, of course, but personally I would not entertain going 'solo' unless all three were to do so. If all three agree to go solo, then great! Best overall solution! 

But, I would not go solo if it meant that one house still had a sewer running through my land to feed the new neighbouring STP. That is a can of worms. For instance, if the other two decide that they do need to separate the R&G water from the sewage, then I suspect you'd struggle to prevent them from digging up your garden and laying a second soil pipe through it for this; would you be happy with that? And you'd have the much greater costs of going solo instead of a three-way split. And you'd have the the cost of rewriting the easements - I suspect at your full expense since you are the maverick, and the one changing the status quo. And if you don't change the easement, then you'd remain liable for a third of their running costs! Could you even manage to change the easement if the other two say 'non'?! If not, you'd be stuffed - ongoing maintentance costs towards their system as you also run yours...

I may be wrong, but I cannot see 'jumping ship' going smoothly or cheaply for you - unless all three jump.

Just state clearly to them the way things need to be done. Agreement on the type of STP (who cares if it's powered, as long as it works...). Separate R&G water via soakaways or ditches - if the STP states that this has to be the case). No requirement to rewrite the easement as you are effectively replacing like-for-like (at least they've agreed this). Or, all three go solo.

If they try and move forward outwith these essential requirements (not you insisting on this, but the manuafcturer), then you engage your LP.

Unless I'm missing something rather obvious, this seems the only sensible way to me - unless you have impossibly deep pockets. Or all three go fully solo - give them that as an option.

AJC211

WIAWSNB said:

I'm at a bit of a loss, here.

There is no 'fighting them legally' here afaIcs. The existing deeds are clear. If any part of the existing ST fails or needs repair, then the deeds say you share the cost of fixing it equally. If a part fails beyond repair, then it's patently obvious that you will need a new part - even if that means a whole ST. If a part becomes obsolete - as STs have - then it's patently obvious that you will need to replace it with a suitable alternative, in this case a STP. If STPs are not designed to handle rain and ground water, then it's patently obvious that alternative provision needs to be made for this.

These are surely all statements of the bleedin' obvious? Nothing contentious there. No challenge to the deeds.

If either of the other two attempt to override these obvious statements, then you call on your LegProt.

This is entirely your call to make, of course, but personally I would not entertain going 'solo' unless all three were to do so. If all three agree to go solo, then great! Best overall solution! 

But, I would not go solo if it meant that one house still had a sewer running through my land to feed the new neighbouring STP. That is a can of worms. For instance, if the other two decide that they do need to separate the R&G water from the sewage, then I suspect you'd struggle to prevent them from digging up your garden and laying a second soil pipe through it for this; would you be happy with that? And you'd have the much greater costs of going solo instead of a three-way split. And you'd have the the cost of rewriting the easements - I suspect at your full expense since you are the maverick, and the one changing the status quo. And if you don't change the easement, then you'd remain liable for a third of their running costs! Could you even manage to change the easement if the other two say 'non'?! If not, you'd be stuffed - ongoing maintentance costs towards their system as you also run yours...

I may be wrong, but I cannot see 'jumping ship' going smoothly or cheaply for you - unless all three jump.

Just state clearly to them the way things need to be done. Agreement on the type of STP (who cares if it's powered, as long as it works...). Separate R&G water via soakaways or ditches - if the STP states that this has to be the case). No requirement to rewrite the easement as you are effectively replacing like-for-like (at least they've agreed this). Or, all three go solo.

If they try and move forward outwith these essential requirements (not you insisting on this, but the manuafcturer), then you engage your LP.

Unless I'm missing something rather obvious, this seems the only sensible way to me - unless you have impossibly deep pockets. Or all three go fully solo - give them that as an option.

I totally get what you’re saying. But I don’t feel in a position to embroil myself in a legal battle with them and force them to do what they don’t want to do. If we continue as per easement I’d still be paying extra for a soakaway to deal with the rainwater. And I’d still be sharing a sewage system with neighbours who I no longer trust. That’s my main issue.

if I go solo then in theory (says my lawyer) I am released from the easement by virtue of not using the new equipment, but in practice I will seek legal release to prevent future issues. We have recorded letters stating that the current septic tank will be decommissioned on September 1st. 

The easement for the pipe crossing my garden is separate so can remain unchanged. So going solo only requires release from the existing easement. 

The rainwater issue is frustrating but whatever STPs we get it still needs addressing. I’m leaving that bit to my lawyer. If soakaways are needed then so be it. If everyone got individual systems then the rainwater could continue to drain via the (cleaned) septic tank/a pipe out in bypassing the septic tank so the rainwater continues to drain well away from the houses in a ditch that the septic tank currently drains into. 

AJC211

Also it’s not a disaster digging a new soil pipe across my garden, it’s really narrow there and it’ll be dug up for my STP installation anyway 

WIAWSNB

AJC211 said:

I totally get what you’re saying. But I don’t feel in a position to embroil myself in a legal battle with them and force them to do what they don’t want to do. If we continue as per easement I’d still be paying extra for a soakaway to deal with the rainwater. And I’d still be sharing a sewage system with neighbours who I no longer trust. That’s my main issue.

if I go solo then in theory (says my lawyer) I am released from the easement by virtue of not using the new equipment, but in practice I will seek legal release to prevent future issues. We have recorded letters stating that the current septic tank will be decommissioned on September 1st. 

The easement for the pipe crossing my garden is separate so can remain unchanged. So going solo only requires release from the existing easement. 

The rainwater issue is frustrating but whatever STPs we get it still needs addressing. I’m leaving that bit to my lawyer. If soakaways are needed then so be it. If everyone got individual systems then the rainwater could continue to drain via the (cleaned) septic tank/a pipe out in bypassing the septic tank so the rainwater continues to drain well away from the houses in a ditch that the septic tank currently drains into. 

A few 'ifs' in there.

I obviously don't know the nuance of what's been going on, but it seems as tho' you have been placed in a situation of having to repeatedly react to these bullying neighbours, always responding to their absurd demands and claims, often using a solicitor - which must be costing you.

Instead, from day one, it should have been, "This is what's required as per the existing easement in the deeds; as near a like-for-like replacement as possible. Replacing the obsolete and failing ST with a new STP, the specs of which we will discuss and agree on."

And every time they say this and that and the other, you say, 'No'.

Once they threaten to carry out a unilateral action, you then call on your LegProt.

Ok, I doubt it would be quite as straight forward as that, but we've had 19 pages of you explaining how you've repeatedly countered these bullies, explaining why each of their patently unreasonable alternatives are unacceptable. In the vast majority of cases, a simple 'No' would have sufficed.

You keep a record of what you are willing and prepared to accept, and have presented to them; the 'replacement of the ST with an equivalent STP, thereby maintaining the status quo, coupled with any associated upgrades - eg separating the R&G water', and let them shout as much as they want. They'd be stuffed. Your neighbs try and keep their R&G water running down the same single soil pipe to the new STP? Call your LP - they'll put an injunction on them, as it would provably breach the operation of the STP with possible environmental issues. Keep it simple. Keep in control. Don't argue, don't discuss stupid details with these two. Repeat the mantra - replace the ST with STP. R&G water to be handled independently.

Good luck to your LegProt if, instead, you take these 19 pages of neighbouring discussions to them.

Ultimately your decision.

What have your neighbs said about you going solo, and they share their own new STP? Are they 'happy' with that? If not, then they can legitimately nobble every step you take, making this a complete 'mare for you. You'd be the one trying to change the easemented status quo, so you'd be the one having to drive this forward, and handle all the legal costs. Your LegProt won't help you, I'm pretty sure - it'd be a lose-lose for them, afaIcs.

AJC211

WIAWSNB said:

AJC211 said:

I totally get what you’re saying. But I don’t feel in a position to embroil myself in a legal battle with them and force them to do what they don’t want to do. If we continue as per easement I’d still be paying extra for a soakaway to deal with the rainwater. And I’d still be sharing a sewage system with neighbours who I no longer trust. That’s my main issue.

if I go solo then in theory (says my lawyer) I am released from the easement by virtue of not using the new equipment, but in practice I will seek legal release to prevent future issues. We have recorded letters stating that the current septic tank will be decommissioned on September 1st. 

The easement for the pipe crossing my garden is separate so can remain unchanged. So going solo only requires release from the existing easement. 

The rainwater issue is frustrating but whatever STPs we get it still needs addressing. I’m leaving that bit to my lawyer. If soakaways are needed then so be it. If everyone got individual systems then the rainwater could continue to drain via the (cleaned) septic tank/a pipe out in bypassing the septic tank so the rainwater continues to drain well away from the houses in a ditch that the septic tank currently drains into. 

A few 'ifs' in there.

I obviously don't know the nuance of what's been going on, but it seems as tho' you have been placed in a situation of having to repeatedly react to these bullying neighbours, always responding to their absurd demands and claims, often using a solicitor - which must be costing you.

Instead, from day one, it should have been, "This is what's required as per the existing easement in the deeds; as near a like-for-like replacement as possible. Replacing the obsolete and failing ST with a new STP, the specs of which we will discuss and agree on."

And every time they say this and that and the other, you say, 'No'.

Once they threaten to carry out a unilateral action, you then call on your LegProt.

Ok, I doubt it would be quite as straight forward as that, but we've had 19 pages of you explaining how you've repeatedly countered these bullies, explaining why each of their patently unreasonable alternatives are unacceptable. In the vast majority of cases, a simple 'No' would have sufficed.

You keep a record of what you are willing and prepared to accept, and have presented to them; the 'replacement of the ST with an equivalent STP, thereby maintaining the status quo, coupled with any associated upgrades - eg separating the R&G water', and let them shout as much as they want. They'd be stuffed. Your neighbs try and keep their R&G water running down the same single soil pipe to the new STP? Call your LP - they'll put an injunction on them, as it would provably breach the operation of the STP with possible environmental issues. Keep it simple. Keep in control. Don't argue, don't discuss stupid details with these two. Repeat the mantra - replace the ST with STP. R&G water to be handled independently.

Good luck to your LegProt if, instead, you take these 19 pages of neighbouring discussions to them.

Ultimately your decision.

What have your neighbs said about you going solo, and they share their own new STP? Are they 'happy' with that? If not, then they can legitimately nobble every step you take, making this a complete 'mare for you. You'd be the one trying to change the easemented status quo, so you'd be the one having to drive this forward, and handle all the legal costs. Your LegProt won't help you, I'm pretty sure - it'd be a lose-lose for them, afaIcs.

I do get what you mean and wish I’d have had the gumption to do that, but it’s not 100% certain that an STP replacing a Septic tank does fall within the easement (it probably would be viewed a such in a court of law, but no 100% guarantees, as it’s not exactly like-for-like because the STP would be a lot bigger and would require electricity) and would likely have resulted in a long drawn-out legal battle, as they absolutely would not back down (they have a legal/property background themselves). I feel each doing our own system is preferable to fighting it out in a long-winded legal battle. 

You make a good point about whether or not they’re happy with the outcome - possibly not. But I also don’t think I’d be happy with the outcome if I had to continue to share with them - I want to get out of the sharing arrangement now I’ve experienced what happens when neighbours disagree 🤷‍♀️  

WIAWSNB

AJC211 said:

I do get what you mean and wish I’d have had the gumption to do that, but it’s not 100% certain that an STP replacing a Septic tank does fall within the easement (it probably would be viewed a such in a court of law, but no 100% guarantees, as it’s not exactly like-for-like because the STP would be a lot bigger and would require electricity) and would likely have resulted in a long drawn-out legal battle, as they absolutely would not back down (they have a legal/property background themselves). I feel each doing our own system is preferable to fighting it out in a long-winded legal battle. 

You make a good point about whether or not they’re happy with the outcome - possibly not. But I also don’t think I’d be happy with the outcome if I had to continue to share with them - I want to get out of the sharing arrangement now I’ve experienced what happens when neighbours disagree 🤷‍♀️ 

Totally understand your dilemma, and totally agree with what would the best overall outcome - each going solo (or at least you being able to do so). But, if you won't have the support of the other two going forwards with that option, then I fear they can have you in deep poo (sorry...)

So, are they open to the option of you going solo, whilst they continue with their shared system? With you being prepared to allow their sewer pipe to cross your land to facilitate this? Therefore, apart from the one existing buried pipe crossing your land (which may possibly need to be increased to two to separate their R&G water), you will be completely independent of them. Have you made that suggestion yet?

I am not a 'legal' person, but it strikes me as patently obvious that the necessary replacement of a defunct and environmentally-outlawed ST by a modern STP - the only option - will be doable within the current easement requirements. Take it to any logical conclusion; if the required 'repair' or upgrade to the existing ST was, say, to just add a pump, or a water heater, or an aerator, or a floodlight, or anything else requiring electricty, would you be running around in circles wondering whether the 'non-electric easement' still stands? Of course not. The same applies if the new 'tank' is bigger - it will not state in the easements that there's a physical limit to the size.

So, I'm suggesting to you that the simplest, completely enforceable, option is that you all share the new STP, under the existing terms and conditions of your deeds. End of. You confirm this by asking your LegProt.

It seems equally obvious to me that any alternative arrangement to this, that the other two parties are not agreeable to, is going to be highly fraught and hugely costly for you. And, as the instigator, you will almost certainly not have the support of your LegProt. You will be on your own.

That is my view.

Your situation has been made knuckle-grindingly complex by 19 pages of challenge and counter-challenge over the most absurd points with these two bullies. Every single time, they turn the tables, and force you to investigate and respond. You are being 'played'.

Your call, but you can turn the tables in an instant; Status Quo - or nothing*. If they refuse, then they will be liable for the potential environmnetal damage. Your LegProt will protect you, since you can evidence that you have always been prepared to do the right thing. 

*Yes, you can give them the 'solo' option too.

AJC211

You’re right. I will check in with them that this solution is agreeable to them. I assumed it was, because all along they’ve behaved as if they don’t want to continue the easement, they don’t want me to share, and they want to choose exactly where, who and what the STP in their land is. But you’re right, if I’ve read the situation wrong and they’re NOT happy then they could be a problem. 

I had assumed that, given their stubborn position thus far, they would be happy with the position they’ve forced themselves into - but maybe not! If they genuinely thought they’d force me to accept what they wanted then the may be fuming 😬

WIAWSNB

Good luck.

Keep it simple! Two options - the S-Q, or go solo.