Septic tank (shared) upgrade - what would you do?

BikingBud

What was it Einstein said about "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"?

Always interesting living next door to tutters - usually self-righteous bullies and it's very entertaining as they disappear huffing and puffing to themselves.

ThisIsWeird

Thanks for the update - and keep writing everything down. Dated, timed, verbatim as possible. Ideally 'recorded'.

A £25 CCTV front and back, with an SD cards, would record all this for you.

AJC211

ThisIsWeird said:

Thanks for the update - and keep writing everything down. Dated, timed, verbatim as possible. Ideally 'recorded'.

A £25 CCTV front and back, with an SD cards, would record all this for you.

I’ve got him accosting me on camera but not what he says. He’s on the part of my driveway that my other neighbours (his parents) have a right of way across so he’s not doing anything wrong, just feels very much like an invasion of my privacy.

‘Lucky’ I’ve got experience of dealing with bullies like this who try to manipulate you into doing what they want

ThisIsWeird

AJC211 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Thanks for the update - and keep writing everything down. Dated, timed, verbatim as possible. Ideally 'recorded'.

A £25 CCTV front and back, with an SD cards, would record all this for you.

I’ve got him accosting me on camera but not what he says. He’s on the part of my driveway that my other neighbours (his parents) have a right of way across so he’s not doing anything wrong, just feels very much like an invasion of my privacy.

‘Lucky’ I’ve got experience of dealing with bullies like this who try to manipulate you into doing what they want

I just mean to record the dialogue - and his mannerisms.

AJC211

Quite an amusing update. Got the letter from Cottage 1, again accusing me of causing delays, telling me this is my FINAL CHANCE to opt into a system that I have refused for a WHOLE YEAR (the one where outflow is via my land)....And also accusing me of threatening to obstruct the existing pipes crossing my garden (I didn't) and demanding I respond within 14 days as to this with whether or not I intend to do so. 

I emailed back both neighbours saying that I couldn't understand why this system is still being talked about as if it were an option - it is not an option and never has been - nor why I'm being pressurised to opt in or out, when it isn't even an option....That I was also baffled by the fact that there clearly IS another solution on cottage 3 land which they are choosing to exclude me from (because that's what cottage 1 and 3 will use if I go down the individual route), but that this was of course their prerogative. 

I said that given the absence of 3-way sharing options, I would be pursuing an individual system and would instruct my solicitor accordingly to get the necessary legal aspects tied up (removing me from the old easement, addressing their use of existing pipes crossing my garden to access their new system), and that I hoped this addressed their concerns regarding the existing pipes crossing my garden ('don't worry my lawyer's on it'). 

Well now, this seems to have got the w1llies up 'em...Got a very angry neighbour on my doorstep demanding I come round to look at the leaking pipes and acknowledge how urgent the matter is. I went round and nodded.

They then laid into me, accusing me of not responding to them (I have), of not finding solutions (apparently there HAS always been a 3-way sharing option on their land SO LONG AS I allow installation access via my land, but it is MY FAULT that they haven't liked any of them and MY FAULT for not finding one that they DO like), blah blah blah. I have no idea why they think it is entirely my job to find a solution that they're happy with, on their property...Why would they think that???

Got the impression that they are very surprised that I actually meant what I said about getting an individual system. I really like the idea of getting an individual system now, these people have ruined my health this year. I have lost all will to work together with these people and share anything more than is really necessary with them...

They are clearly sh!tt!ng themselves because they've (finally) realised that without me on board, they will have to get a system that is a) more expensive b) they will have to access via their own land, not mine and c) may involve digging up some of their lawn (but that was always a risk given they bought a house with a shared sewage system in the garden)

AJC211

Update! 

Neighbours eventually put forward a 3-way shared proposal on the same property it’s currently on, with the following conditions, IF it is possible…
1- they chose site, installer and STP
2- I pay 35% installation cost and 33% maintenance (current arrangement is 33% but other two houses are 5 bed and mine 3 bed)
3- work, plant and STP/other delivery ALL goes through my garden, not theirs
4- the STP doesn’t have a pump (must be gravity outflow)
5- new easement is drawn up at my cost

I have politely declined this option and will be installing my own individual system. Not least because their plan means rainwater (which currently goes the same route as soil/sewage) will be entering the new STP…

The two neighbours either side of me wish to continue use the existing pipes so they can share an STP. But these pipes have historically carried rainwater as well as soil/sewage. Some rainwater from cottage 1 & 2 (I am 2) in a gutter at cottage 1, rainwater from cottage 2 & 3 in a gutter down the side of my cottage (2). 

They have said they’re ok with the rainwater that comes via cottage 1’s gutter entering their STP, but that I must redirect the rainwater coming via ‘my’ gutter. In other words, they can continue to exert their historical right to drain rainwater into the pipe crossing my garden, but I cannot. Hmmm 🤔 

I think there’s three options
 1- new soil pipe linking cottage 1&3 (across my garden, it’s narrow so not difficult), rainwater continues on existing  route
2- they accept that using the existing pipe means rainwater enters their STP
3- they pay to redirect rainwater into soakaways (this would involve me putting a soakaway in my garden)

chrisw

They shouldn't be putting rain water into the sewage system. I would have thought any professional putting the new tank in would insist on the rainwater being diverted to soakaway or they'll be receiving complaints about poor treatment and potential flooding.

AJC211

Ychrisw said:

They shouldn't be putting rain water into the sewage system. I would have thought any professional putting the new tank in would insist on the rainwater being diverted to soakaway or they'll be receiving complaints about poor treatment and potential flooding.

Exactly! We’re only addressing the issue because I raised it, their installer hasn’t! They’ve know for 9m that they wanted to share an STP and therefore cross my garden, goodness knows why they haven’t thought about how they do this 🤷‍♀️

WIAWSNB

AJC211 said:

Update! 

Neighbours eventually put forward a 3-way shared proposal on the same property it’s currently on, with the following conditions, IF it is possible…
1- they chose site, installer and STP
2- I pay 35% installation cost and 33% maintenance (current arrangement is 33% but other two houses are 5 bed and mine 3 bed)
3- work, plant and STP/other delivery ALL goes through my garden, not theirs
4- the STP doesn’t have a pump (must be gravity outflow)
5- new easement is drawn up at my cost

I have politely declined this option and will be installing my own individual system. Not least because their plan means rainwater (which currently goes the same route as soil/sewage) will be entering the new STP…

The two neighbours either side of me wish to continue use the existing pipes so they can share an STP. But these pipes have historically carried rainwater as well as soil/sewage. Some rainwater from cottage 1 & 2 (I am 2) in a gutter at cottage 1, rainwater from cottage 2 & 3 in a gutter down the side of my cottage (2). 

They have said they’re ok with the rainwater that comes via cottage 1’s gutter entering their STP, but that I must redirect the rainwater coming via ‘my’ gutter. In other words, they can continue to exert their historical right to drain rainwater into the pipe crossing my garden, but I cannot. Hmmm 🤔 

I think there’s three options
 1- new soil pipe linking cottage 1&3 (across my garden, it’s narrow so not difficult), rainwater continues on existing  route
2- they accept that using the existing pipe means rainwater enters their STP
3- they pay to redirect rainwater into soakaways (this would involve me putting a soakaway in my garden)

Well, I guess the single biggest issue has been addressed - that they will accept having the STP in the existing garden. Progress!

Their conditions are patently unreasonable, tho' - no rationale, but seemingly just plucked out of the air to suit them. Weird.

I would be tempted to gently push them on this, by asking them to clarify - justify - their conditions, if they can. Ie, don't 'counter' what they say (at least not yet), but ask ask ask how they arrived at these decisions.

1- they choose the site, installer and STP. Why, as a potential 1/3rd contributer, with 1/3rd rights outlined in the existing deeds, should I not have an equal say on these points? What right, or qualification, do you have to make these decisions on my behalf?
2- I pay 35% installation cost and 33% maintenance (current arrangement is 33% but other two houses are 5 bed and mine 3 bed) Why 35%? How did you arrive at this sum? (1/3rd is probably right, however, and I understand is the usual arrangement, despite the differences in house sizes, unless you include in the deeds an ability to review that share depending on a change in the number of occupants, extensions being built, etc. Personally, I'd stick with a simple 1/3rd.)
3- work, plant and STP/other delivery ALL goes through my garden, not theirs. (Is this 'reasonable'? Is it the only route? Will the installation costs include making good your land? If there are other, equally valid access points, then just ask the usual Q - why my garden and not yours?!)
4- the STP doesn’t have a pump (must be gravity outflow) Why are you discounting a pumped system at this stage? It'll surely come down to the preferred STP model?
5- new easement is drawn up at my cost. Why is a new easement required in any case - the current one covers the essentials, doesn't it? And, if a new easement is required, why should the cost be borne by me? Explain your reasonaing, please.

And don't let them off with not answering these Qs in full - keep going back; "You haven't answered/explained..."

AJC211

WIAWSNB said:

AJC211 said:

Update! 

Neighbours eventually put forward a 3-way shared proposal on the same property it’s currently on, with the following conditions, IF it is possible…
1- they chose site, installer and STP
2- I pay 35% installation cost and 33% maintenance (current arrangement is 33% but other two houses are 5 bed and mine 3 bed)
3- work, plant and STP/other delivery ALL goes through my garden, not theirs
4- the STP doesn’t have a pump (must be gravity outflow)
5- new easement is drawn up at my cost

I have politely declined this option and will be installing my own individual system. Not least because their plan means rainwater (which currently goes the same route as soil/sewage) will be entering the new STP…

The two neighbours either side of me wish to continue use the existing pipes so they can share an STP. But these pipes have historically carried rainwater as well as soil/sewage. Some rainwater from cottage 1 & 2 (I am 2) in a gutter at cottage 1, rainwater from cottage 2 & 3 in a gutter down the side of my cottage (2). 

They have said they’re ok with the rainwater that comes via cottage 1’s gutter entering their STP, but that I must redirect the rainwater coming via ‘my’ gutter. In other words, they can continue to exert their historical right to drain rainwater into the pipe crossing my garden, but I cannot. Hmmm 🤔 

I think there’s three options
 1- new soil pipe linking cottage 1&3 (across my garden, it’s narrow so not difficult), rainwater continues on existing  route
2- they accept that using the existing pipe means rainwater enters their STP
3- they pay to redirect rainwater into soakaways (this would involve me putting a soakaway in my garden)

Well, I guess the single biggest issue has been addressed - that they will accept having the STP in the existing garden. Progress!

Their conditions are patently unreasonable, tho' - no rationale, but seemingly just plucked out of the air to suit them. Weird.

I would be tempted to gently push them on this, by asking them to clarify - justify - their conditions, if they can. Ie, don't 'counter' what they say (at least not yet), but ask ask ask how they arrived at these decisions.

1- they choose the site, installer and STP. Why, as a potential 1/3rd contributer, with 1/3rd rights outlined in the existing deeds, should I not have an equal say on these points? What right, or qualification, do you have to make these decisions on my behalf?
2- I pay 35% installation cost and 33% maintenance (current arrangement is 33% but other two houses are 5 bed and mine 3 bed) Why 35%? How did you arrive at this sum? (1/3rd is probably right, however, and I understand is the usual arrangement, despite the differences in house sizes, unless you include in the deeds an ability to review that share depending on a change in the number of occupants, extensions being built, etc. Personally, I'd stick with a simple 1/3rd.)
3- work, plant and STP/other delivery ALL goes through my garden, not theirs. (Is this 'reasonable'? Is it the only route? Will the installation costs include making good your land? If there are other, equally valid access points, then just ask the usual Q - why my garden and not yours?!)
4- the STP doesn’t have a pump (must be gravity outflow) Why are you discounting a pumped system at this stage? It'll surely come down to the preferred STP model?
5- new easement is drawn up at my cost. Why is a new easement required in any case - the current one covers the essentials, doesn't it? And, if a new easement is required, why should the cost be borne by me? Explain your reasonaing, please.

And don't let them off with not answering these Qs in full - keep going back; "You haven't answered/explained..."

I’ve decided not to push them on the matter as a) I don’t want to share with them any more and b) it won’t get me anywhere. My garden is easier for access because they have a shrubbery in the way. New easement because it won’t be a like-for-like replacement of the old one. 35% because of the inconvenience of it being in their garden. No pump because they simply don’t trust it not to go wrong. Basically if it’s going to be in their property they insist it has to be what THEY want (yep even if it’s shared ownership). They absolutely will
not budge on that. To be honest it makes my decision easier!

What they haven’t done is clarify what they plan to do about the fact that the existing drain that crosses my garden, that they want to continue to use, is a combined drain and has been forever - it takes both soil/sewage and rainwater. Either they’re ok with that and will
have rainwater in their system, or they need a separate soil pipe, or they need to divert the rainwater elsewhere so it doesn’t go into the new STP…..Instead, what they’ve said is that they’re happy for the rainwater that comes their side of the fence to go into the existing combined pipe (ie they can continue to use their historical right to drain rainwater into it), but that my right to use this pipe for rainwater must end. Which I don’t really understand the reasoning for. 

As a comparison I happily put a soakaway in the back at my expense that took rainwater for both my house and next door, didn’t get all arsey about, just did what was best for the cottages 🤷‍♀️