New radiators - totally baffled!

A1ps

FreeBear said:

A1ps said: If any of you are local to North London, I owe you a drink of what every is your preference 

That would be a Quinta do Noval Nacional, 1963 for me (got expensive tastes )

  

Would a  diet coke suffice?

PS I love your signature 

A1ps

Another quick question guys please, I've had a couple of quotes to install the radiators. Some of the plumbers are saying there's no need for new pipes as they'll just put an elbow on and divert the existing pipes to suit the larger radiators. Now to me this doesn't sound right at all, but as you guys can no doubt tell from my posts, I know nothing about this kinda stuff . Is what they are saying the correct process?

gm0

You are correct to be suspicious.

Incentives.  Most plumbers want the job to be easy.  And quick.  And profitable v any quote. 

They (with rare exceptions) don't much care if its neat. Or right.  Or the slightly extra effort but better way to do X.
Or future proof for lower flow resistance and lower temperatures later (heat pumps).   Or adding isolators around serviceable components added.  In and out. Bish bash bosh. Bill

Bodging old pipes with elbows and stubby bits to achieve - watertight (today) and functional (today).  Is the bar they will be aiming for.

So if you don't want that - you will have to take control and insist on i.e. specify what you want.  Or it won't happen.

This is how the world works.  Even if the boss comes round and agrees it with you.  If on day 2 some other lad shows up they will do whatever the hell they like the way they like.  A lot of trades seem to have a personal "way" and to actively resist working to a spec, a diagram, a statement of work - or anything else

FreeBear

Extending the pipes by putting elbows in saves having to rip up floors and drilling new holes. Putting extra bends in, whilst not the prettiest method, is the quickest & easiest way. e.g.

Oh, and use solder fittings like above, not those darned !!!!!! Speedfit things.

A1ps

gm0 said:

You are correct to be suspicious.

Incentives.  Most plumbers want the job to be easy.  And quick.  And profitable v any quote. 

They (with rare exceptions) don't much care if its neat. Or right.  Or the slightly extra effort but better way to do X.
Or future proof for lower flow resistance and lower temperatures later (heat pumps).   Or adding isolators around serviceable components added.  In and out. Bish bash bosh. Bill

Bodging old pipes with elbows and stubby bits to achieve - watertight (today) and functional (today).  Is the bar they will be aiming for.

So if you don't want that - you will have to take control and insist on i.e. specify what you want.  Or it won't happen.

This is how the world works.  Even if the boss comes round and agrees it with you.  If on day 2 some other lad shows up they will do whatever the hell they like the way they like.  A lot of trades seem to have a personal "way" and to actively resist working to a spec, a diagram, a statement of work - or anything else

FreeBear said:

Extending the pipes by putting elbows in saves having to rip up floors and drilling new holes. Putting extra bends in, whilst not the prettiest method, is the quickest & easiest way. e.g.

Oh, and use solder fittings like above, not those darned !!!!!! Speedfit things.

Thanks guys for the advice. 

I've made it clear to the plumbers there's no way I want external elbows. They're suggesting cutting the floor and adding copper elbows below and extending the distance required via that method. Apparently no soldering required. But from looking at FreeBear's picture, I think I can see at least 2 solder lines. 

And how do I future proof these radiators? I've gone for Drayton self balancing valves. I have Tado TRVs on all radiators. Any other recommendations?

PS FreeBear if that's your wall, I have a similar green in my bedroom 

MysteryMe

I've recently had a new heating system put in. I was given the option of new pipes and all that entails or using existing pipework similar to image above. I chose the latter, it would have been a lot more costly and a lot more disruption to the rest of the house to have new pipework. Either way is acceptable, depends on how important it is to you to how the pipework looks. 

FreeBear

A1ps said: I've made it clear to the plumbers there's no way I want external elbows. They're suggesting cutting the floor and adding copper elbows below and extending the distance required via that method. Apparently no soldering required. But from looking at FreeBear's picture, I think I can see at least 2 solder lines. 

PS FreeBear if that's your wall, I have a similar green in my bedroom 

If they are proposing no soldering, they are using compression, Speedfit, or one of the other push/crimp fittings (and those are expensive). Out of the three, compression would be OK, but you'll need two fittings on each leg. A straight coupler, and then a 90° elbow - Acceptable if there is enough space under the floor.

A total of 3 90° elbows in that pic - Could reduce it to 2 90° and a 45° which would look a little neater.

Solder fittings take a little time to fit, and you have to be careful not to set fire to stuff if using a blowtorch - There are electric soldering irons available, but I suspect few plumbers would use one. You also have to clean the flux off when done so as to avoid corrosion setting in (plumber's flux is acidic). I wipe joints down with a damp cloth with bicarbonate of soda added to the water.

And no, that is not my wall. I'm doing dark red woodwork with a light pink on the wall.

A1ps

MysteryMe said:

I've recently had a new heating system put in. I was given the option of new pipes and all that entails or using existing pipework similar to image above. I chose the latter, it would have been a lot more costly and a lot more disruption to the rest of the house to have new pipework. Either way is acceptable, depends on how important it is to you to how the pipework looks. 

FreeBear said:

A1ps said: I've made it clear to the plumbers there's no way I want external elbows. They're suggesting cutting the floor and adding copper elbows below and extending the distance required via that method. Apparently no soldering required. But from looking at FreeBear's picture, I think I can see at least 2 solder lines. 

PS FreeBear if that's your wall, I have a similar green in my bedroom 

If they are proposing no soldering, they are using compression, Speedfit, or one of the other push/crimp fittings (and those are expensive). Out of the three, compression would be OK, but you'll need two fittings on each leg. A straight coupler, and then a 90° elbow - Acceptable if there is enough space under the floor.

A total of 3 90° elbows in that pic - Could reduce it to 2 90° and a 45° which would look a little neater.

Solder fittings take a little time to fit, and you have to be careful not to set fire to stuff if using a blowtorch - There are electric soldering irons available, but I suspect few plumbers would use one. You also have to clean the flux off when done so as to avoid corrosion setting in (plumber's flux is acidic). I wipe joints down with a damp cloth with bicarbonate of soda added to the water.

And no, that is not my wall. I'm doing dark red woodwork with a light pink on the wall.

Mystery me, you didn't go with new pipe work, but did you go under or over the floor?
 
Freebear, I think they were suggesting push crimp methods. They looked under the floor and said they'd do something similar. I'll post up some pics soon showing what I currently have. Apparently the current pipe work is horrific! But that's understandable as the guy who built the house was an absolute cowboy and has cut every corner possible. 

FreeBear

A1ps said: Apparently the current pipe work is horrific! But that's understandable as the guy who built the house was an absolute cowboy and has cut every corner possible. 

Depending on how much work you are willing to do, it might pay to replumb the entire system. I did this last year for three reasons. A new combi boiler fitted in a different location to replace an old back boiler. Wanted to move some of the radiators to different walls. Also wanted to future-proof the system ready for the day when a heat pump is the only option. So 22mm pipes for the feed/return, short runs of 15mm to the radiators, and a big bag of fittings. A lot of work for little short term gain, but there will be a lot less disruption if/when I have a heat pump.

A1ps

Wife got back in time for me to borrow her torch so grabbed some pics. I was shocked at just how much of the floor boards have been cut. 

The first 2 are from my bedroom. Near impossible to get good pics. 

The last 2 are the loft room and much better pics. No doubt what you see in these 2 pics will resemble what's in all the other rooms. To me it looks like the builder has used plastic fixings. If this was an OK method, I'd want copper. I'd also want straight pipes to the rads. Some of the current pipes are slightly angled. 

Bedroom:



Loft room: