Euro Car Parks - Sainsbury's Notice To Keeper

ABD20

I received the Notice To Keeper on 27/04/2024
The page is titled: NOTICE TO KEEPER

Date of Event: 09/04/2024
Date Issued: 17/04/2024

A black box contains the following:

PARKING CHARGE NOTICE: £85.00
PAYMENT MADE WITHIN 28 DAYS  OF DATE ISSUED BY 15/05/2024
Discounted to £50 if paid within 14 days of date issues by 01/05/2024

Location: Sainsbury's (the landowner is Sainsbury's)
Time in car park: 2 hours, 25 minutes
Contravention: No valid payment or validation made to cover duration of stay

The Landowner is Sainsbury's and customers can only stay in the car park for a maximum of 2 hours. I was a customer but unknowingly parked for longer than I usually do at this car park as I went out to other nearby shops for some other items that I needed and lost track of time. I had parked at around 2pm and the car park had plenty of free spaces both on arrival and when leaving.

The language in the letter is very alarming as they have said that according to the POFA 2012, if I don't provide the correct address for service of the driver, pass the notice on to the driver, then they will pursue me for any Parking Charge amount that remains outstanding.

Having read through the forum's stickied threads, I think I should begin with Plan A, an email to the CEO. I have looked for a template but the one linked is on PePiPoo which has been down for many days and I cannot access it. Is there a good template to follow and how much do I need to write as it says to be assertive but I don't feel as though I have many points except for the fact that I'm a very regular Sainsbury's customer (I don't have receipts as evidence but it would show in bank statements.) On that particular day I believe I spent £7 in store.

The letter reached me on 27/04/2024 which has really angered me as it feels though they have intentionally backdated it and sent it out late to give me much less time and to therefore pressure me into paying the reduced fee. I'm also not doing very well at the moment and really cannot afford the £50 even though it may seem to some as not a lot of money.

If my letter to the CEO does not work out will this be sufficient grounds to cancelling this charge as according to the POFA 2012:

(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

So if 14 days from the day after the alleged parking contravention is from the: 10/04/2024 to 23/04/2024.
Then, the second working day after the date issued would be 22/04/2024.
So, does this mean that ECP have failed to meet the POFA deadline?

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this and for your help. 

KeithP

I think your first action should be to go back to the Sainsburys store and speak to the Customer Services desk.
Give them a copy of your PCN and a copy of your receipt for the day and ask that they resolve this issue for a valued customer.

I cannot see that the NTK was issued late.
You told us the letter states:
Date of Event: 09/04/2024
Date Issued: 17/04/2024
Even allowing two days for delivery the letter will have been deemed delivered on 19th April - just ten days after the parking event.
I note that you say you "received the Notice To Keeper on 27/04/2024" but I imagine you have no way of proving that.

ABD20

KeithP said:

I think your first action should be to go back to the Sainsburys store and speak to the Customer Services desk.
Give them a copy of your PCN and a copy of your receipt for the day and ask that they resolve this issue for a valued customer.

I cannot see that the NTK was issued late.
You told us the letter states:
Date of Event: 09/04/2024
Date Issued: 17/04/2024
Even allowing two days for delivery the letter will have been deemed delivered on 19th April - just ten days after the parking event.
I note that you say you "received the Notice To Keeper on 27/04/2024" but I imagine you have no way of proving that.

Thank you. The store is quite a distance from where I live but I will try to speak to the store manager. I don't have the receipt as I used a self checkout till and didn't take it, but I do have a bank statement which shows the name of the store in question, although the amount spent is £7, which is below the £10 spend required for parking at the store for 2 hours. I have parked here before having spent less than £10 and have not received any ticket as I only parked for around 15 minutes.
Regarding the delivery of the letter, yesterday on the 27th, surely they have no way of proving that it was delivered before the 27th? I mean, it's quite unfair that they can state a date of issue and then just post the letter more than a week later. 

ABD20

KeithP said:

I think your first action should be to go back to the Sainsburys store and speak to the Customer Services desk.
Give them a copy of your PCN and a copy of your receipt for the day and ask that they resolve this issue for a valued customer.

I cannot see that the NTK was issued late.
You told us the letter states:
Date of Event: 09/04/2024
Date Issued: 17/04/2024
Even allowing two days for delivery the letter will have been deemed delivered on 19th April - just ten days after the parking event.
I note that you say you "received the Notice To Keeper on 27/04/2024" but I imagine you have no way of proving that.

Hi Keith,

Sorry but isn't this the same as my case?: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6378767/parking-charge-notice-claimed-sent-but-not-arrived-within-14-days

So for them the date of incident is 24/07/2022.
Date of sending notice is: 04/08/2022. 
So, allowing 2 working days for delivery of letter would deem the the NTK to be delivered on 08/08/2022 (Due to the weekend)
This person actually received their PCN on 11/08/2022.
This person appealed on the basis of the 14 day period and had theirs cancelled. Surely they didn't have a way to prove that they received their PCN on 11/08/2022?

I could be very confused but I have tried very hard thinking about this and really don't see a difference between their case and mine, if anything it seems as though I've received mine much later than they have.

Appreciate the help, 

Coupon-mad

Their case is different from yours, because the deemed delivered date is past day 14.  The date it arrived was neither here nor there.

ABD20

Coupon-mad said:

Their case is different from yours, because the deemed delivered date is past day 14.  The date it arrived was neither here nor there.

Okay, I get what you're saying now. It does seem odd though that a notice is dated 17th April would arrive on 27th April. It's certainly possible but they could have backdated it so that they fell within the 14 days. Would they be able to prove that they in fact sent it out in time?
Sorry if this is a moot point, just annoyed that they have possibly sent the notice late to keep it valid.

Coupon-mad

They don't need to prove it.  But they will in future, when the Government's new Code of Practice comes in later this year.  I am heavily involved and am proud that clause got in! 

Concentrate on the other winning points seen in the recent ECP decisions posted in POPLA decisions at the top of the forum.  You've probably got at least one of those at your disposal.

No link. It's a sticky thread.  DON'T read it from the start!

ABD20

Coupon-mad said:

They don't need to prove it.  But they will in future, when the Government's new Code of Practice comes in later this year.  I am heavily involved and am proud that clause got in! 

Concentrate on the other winning points seen in the recent ECP decisions posted in POPLA decisions at the top of the forum.  You've probably got at least one of those at your disposal.

No link. It's a sticky thread.  DON'T read it from the start!

Thanks Coupon-Mad,
So I have read through the stickied thread going from most recent posts backwards to August 2023 and am still unsure of the winning points.

Points that I think I cannot use:

1) It seems the PCN has been received within the required timeframe even though it took 10 days to reach me via post.

2) The PCN states according to POFA that the notice is passed to the driver, once the details have been provided to the operator.

3) Signs are present at the entrance and throughout the carpark, although difficult to read fully from inside the car, you can walk up to them and read them.

4) Images in the NTK do have date and time stamps in the upper left corner, though these are so small on the NTK that you need a magnifying glass to make them out and are still a bit blurry then (They time stamps are 1mm in height). The date and time is also printed above each image though and is easily legible.

Possible winning points:

5) Could I claim that I never received the notice to keeper???

6) One case stated in the Assessor supporting rational that: "With regards to the discounted charge, parking operators are obligated to discount the charge for 14 days to allow for a quick settlement". I received the letter very late so was not offered the 14 days?

I only have until the 1st of May to pay the reduced £50 charge. I am not sure if I have a good chance of getting this cancelled or not. I will visit the Sainsbury's tomorrow and speak to customer services but if this doesn't work out I don't think I will get a response from the CEO in time and may incur the increased charge amount. It wouldn't usually be a big problem but I have had severe wrist pain due to nerve issues for the last 6 months and am unemployed right now.

Thanks again.

Gr1pr

5) you can claim whatever you want, but the presumption is that the NTK PCN letter arrived 2 working days after posting, so well within the 14 days allowed under POFA. They do not have to prove receipt of the PCN, only that it was posted on its issue date.  So lying about it could be worse for you if it went to civil court in the future 

If the NTK PCN letter complied with the timescales and wording in POFA 2012, and ECP ntks tend to do so , then you will find it difficult to argue 

Your ideal solution here is a cancellation by Sainsbury's, it always is, plan A, not the alternatives 

ABD20

Gr1pr said:

5) you can claim whatever you want, but the presumption is that the NTK PCN letter arrived 2 working days after posting, so well within the 14 days allowed under POFA. They do not have to prove receipt of the PCN, only that it was posted on its issue date.  So lying about it could be worse for you if it went to civil court in the future 

If the NTK PCN letter complied with the timescales and wording in POFA 2012, and ECP ntks tend to do so , then you will find it difficult to argue 

Your ideal solution here is a cancellation by Sainsbury's, it always is, plan A, not the alternatives 

Thank you Gr1pr,

So let's just say I try my best to get it cancelled at the Sainsbury's store tomorrow and I fail, would you say it's best to just pay it because sending a letter to the CEO will push me over the early payment deadline and will increase the cost from £50 to £85?

Thanks.

Coupon-mad

You are not going to be influenced by the £50 bribe, so stop looking at that!

Isn't the winning POPLA appeal point about cropped images with no time or date-stamp, relevant because IIRC the Assessor was saying the VRM close ups are cropped and undated? Not the pics of the car.