PIP appeal rejected what now?

olderandwilder

Oh great! Thank you. This may have been where I've been going wrong. 

elsien

Just remember it's not an exclusive list so if anything else comes to mind then add that it. It just may help you/anyone who supports you to appeal with identifying some of the less obvious gaps.
And of course don't overlook any physical health needs because you are concentrating on getting the MH side right. 

olderandwilder

"I do not think that is manipulation. It's being thorough."

 
That's fair,  but she phoned me back to ask if I take the meds and I said I was classed as urgently in need of them, not having them was causing me significant harm, but I'm on a long waiting list to get them back,  and one of the reasons I was rejected was because I don't take the meds therefore my ADHD isn't a problem. 

Somewhere along the line there's a lack of honest communication there. It feels very manipulative from my perspective.

Given that there were several examples of this kind of thing,  is there a way I can see the form she filled in? And even better if I could have a copy of the interview?

I feel like if I had that, and went through it with a (non-autistic) friend, we'd be able to spot those parts where I've misunderstood the question (like thinking she was asking me if I needed someone to change gear for me.)

I'd like to do that for my appeal but also for my own peace of mind because I'm astonished at how much it failed to represent what I thought I'd communicated to her. 

Muttleythefrog

olderandwilder said:

"I do not think that is manipulation. It's being thorough."

 
That's fair,  but she phoned me back to ask if I take the meds and I said I was classed as urgently in need of them, not having them was causing me significant harm, but I'm on a long waiting list to get them back,  and one of the reasons I was rejected was because I don't take the meds therefore my ADHD isn't a problem. 

Somewhere along the line there's a lack of honest communication there. It feels very manipulative from my perspective.

Given that there were several examples of this kind of thing,  is there a way I can see the form she filled in? And even better if I could have a copy of the interview?

I feel like if I had that, and went through it with a (non-autistic) friend, we'd be able to spot those parts where I've misunderstood the question (like thinking she was asking me if I needed someone to change gear for me.)

I'd like to do that for my appeal but also for my own peace of mind because I'm astonished at how much it failed to represent what I thought I'd communicated to her. 

To be honest I'm still somewhat confused as to the events... the form filling, what assessment took place, why the MR decision seemed to be quite unusual in its construction. It does sound like they've taken a line of trying to exclude any relevant disablements except you say you did have a 4 point scoring descriptor in one activity. This can happen in assessments too... a default to no relevant disablements unless you can compel them to consider otherwise. The process does involve manipulation often as far as I'm concerned.. and intimidation.. manipulation of the facts along with wild extrapolations and manipulation of vulnerable people. But for appeal these issues become less a problem.

It is probably uncommon for the claimant to have had such little control over what seems to be their PIP2 'how your disability affects you' form submission... since it sounds like the DWP themselves filled it in for you with help from a call or two. Or was that an assessment by independent assessment company.

What you really need is all of the paperwork involved here. Contact them and try to get them to send with urgency the completed PIP2 form copy so you know what your application said...and get hold of any assessment report (it's unclear what has happened in that regard)... and any other paperwork you don't have that they've used to take decision if such exists. If you can't make the call try to be there when someone else you trust does it for you.

You don't have a vast amount of time.. ideally want to get the appeal in within the 4 weeks of the decision although technically you could appeal later with good reason. So get hold of the paperwork involved so you know where you are. Fresh and clear mind on what descriptors apply to you and put together an appeal case... with or without support. Any supporting evidence also include.

Crucial though in your appeal submission.. Do not get too embroiled in a war of facts or argument with what the DWP or assessors have said. Appeal tribunal is capable of determining for themselves what facts are useful and what evidence is reliable. It's important you present a positive case of explanation for each activity relevant to you as to your disablements and how you are unable to do x,y,z and give examples. You know you better than any of these people... and it's your claim. CAB website has excellent guidance. Remember your appeal tribunal panel will probably have experience of PIP claims where the DWP and their supporting evidence is not impressive or reliable and they've probably disregarded it substantially in many cases. What you've got to make sure is your evidence, notably your own submission and testimony, is coherent, logical and consistent... and relevant.. 

olderandwilder

Thank you again!

The timeline was:

Got pip form
Too overwhelmed to fill it in
Didn't send it back
Got call from DWP offering to fill it in over the phone 
Arranged a call to do it
Panicked and didn't pick up
They called back and did it over the phone
Got rejected 
Tried to get CAB to help
Lost my nerve when someone stood behind me and ran away
Did mandatory reconsideration with spouse and friend helping
Gathered substantial evidence and went through every descriptor (where relevant) outlining needs
Added challenge to every reason they gave for being turned down
Got turned down again - this time with no explanation whatsoever.

I'm angry now. I didn't even know I had it in me to feel like this. Ready to take them on. 

I'll call them on Monday and do whatever is needed to get copies.

It's not helping with the insomnia. 🙄

Alice_Holt

Sorry OP,  but I feel I need to inject a note of warning.

I'm concerned that you think your PIP form didn't fully describe the difficulties you actually have with PIP activities. 

At tribunal they will make their judgement (whether the DWP decision was correct or incorrect) on the basis of the evidence they have in front of them. An important part of that evidence is your signed PIP form, and what you wrote about how your conditions affect you around the PIP activities.

It's possible the assessment at which you say you scored 4 points (was this for social engagement?) might be reasonably consistent with your PIP form.  It's difficult for a tribunal panel, if you attend and tell them stuff that wasn't on your PIP form, nor mentioned in the functional history section of the assessment. They then have conflicting evidence, and will need to fully satisfy themselves that what you are telling them now represents the truth about how you were at the date of the DWP decision.    

Ideally at a tribunal you need consistency between the PIP form, what you told the assessor about a typical day (functional history), your MR and SSCS1 forms, your submission to the tribunal, and the verbal evidence you give to the tribunal panel.
Then the importance of the assessor's conclusions (which may involve false analogies and spurious assumptions) is greatly diminished - and it becomes easier for the panel to judge that the DWP decision is incorrect.

I think you need the help of an experienced benefits adviser,
If you appeal then it's vital that you participate at the hearing.
I'd suggest going back to your local Citizens Advice /  Welfare advice charity  using phone or email and seeing if they have capacity to advise when you get the appeal paperwork (or sooner if you have a copy of your PIP form).
Ask them for their opinion as to whether an appeal is likely to be successful, or if a better tactic is to reapply with their help and ensure your PIP form describes fully and comprehensively all the difficulties you have with the PIP activities and fully sets out how and why you get to the necessary (minimum) 8 points for an award. 

If you do decide (having got advice) that reapplying is likely to be a more successful route - then you can cancel your current tribunal appeal at any point.  

Some more links and resources:
A good guide to appealing -
https://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/appeal-pip-decision

The form you need to lodge an appeal:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63ecabe0d3bf7f62ecf1d97f/SSCS1_0821_save.pdf


https://www.mentalhealthandmoneyadvice.org/en/welfare-benefits/pip-mental-health-guide/

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/help-with-your-claim/fill-in-form-pip/

This site has very thorough guides, but membership costs c.£20 pa.
https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-appeals

olderandwilder

Thank you. Yes I think the problem is that I didn't fill in the original form - the dwp did 

Alice_Holt

olderandwilder said:
 I think the problem is that I didn't fill in the original form - the dwp did 

       But you will have signed it to agree that the information was accurate.

      Can you recall if the PIP form got you to 8 points?

     What did you score the 4 points for?

olderandwilder

No. I 100% did NOT sign it. I've never even seen it. That's what I'm trying to say. They've taken control of this and I feel utterly powerless (and screwed).

olderandwilder

I got 4 points for communication