Ryanair have Cancelled my Flight

jim8888

Ryanair have cancelled my flight and I've rebooked onto an alternative two days later. However, I had booked a night on arrival in Malaga that was prepaid and non-refundable through Hotels.com. If I can't change or get a refund on that stay from Hotels.com, can I claim the cost from Ryanair? 

km1500

the flight and hotel are completely different contracts and were booked separately and had nothing to do with each other so no you can't claim anything from Ryanair

I am betting that the terms and conditions of the contract you have with RA allow them to do what they have done i.e cancel a flight and reschedule

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

km1500 said:

the flight and hotel are completely different contracts and were booked separately and had nothing to do with each other so no you can't claim anything from Ryanair

If you are in a car accident and can't attend your holiday you can claim from the party at fault. If you can go on holiday but injuries cause you not to enjoy your holiday to the fullest you can claim loss of enjoyment from the party at fault.

There doesn't need to be a linked contract to claim damages  

OP you'd have to check the exact terms on Ryanair, terms need to be balanced so if both they and you can amend the contract in the same manner then they are fair. If terms allow them to but not you then those terms are likely unfair (and thus void). 

It gets a bit more complicated with airlines as there is specific legislation covering things like compensation but it's not something I'm familiar with.  

user1977

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

km1500 said:

the flight and hotel are completely different contracts and were booked separately and had nothing to do with each other so no you can't claim anything from Ryanair

If you are in a car accident and can't attend your holiday you can claim from the party at fault. If you can go on holiday but injuries cause you not to enjoy your holiday to the fullest you can claim loss of enjoyment from the party at fault.

There doesn't need to be a linked contract to claim damages  

No, but both of those examples are of losses following negligence, which is quite a different thing.

If you think there's a risk of you not reaching the hotel, you either pick a cancellable tariff for the hotel, or take out appropriate insurance.

(separate question of whether hotels ought to pocket the entire room rate if you don't turn up, but it seems to be normal practice)

born_again

jim8888 said:

Ryanair have cancelled my flight and I've rebooked onto an alternative two days later. However, I had booked a night on arrival in Malaga that was prepaid and non-refundable through Hotels.com. If I can't change or get a refund on that stay from Hotels.com, can I claim the cost from Ryanair? 

Holiday insurance?

eskbanker

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

It gets a bit more complicated with airlines as there is specific legislation covering things like compensation but it's not something I'm familiar with.  

There is indeed specific legislation governing financial and other implications of flight cancellations or delays for UK/EU airlines:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/contents
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/flight-cancellation-compensation/

This will oblige Ryanair to rebook OP onto another flight, and may also require compensation to be paid if there's less than two weeks' notice provided and the root cause is deemed to be within the airline's control.

Given these obligations, it's perhaps unsurprising that they're generally seen as being in full and final settlement of passenger claims, but I don't recall seeing any mention of trying the unfair terms angle(s) to justify a claim for consequential losses, so when this scenario is discussed on the relevant travel board, the prevailing wisdom is typically that separate accommodation bookings aren't reclaimable from airlines cancelling flights, and that such claims need to be made via travel insurers.

km1500

yes I wondered when Ryanair cancelled my flight if I could claim my hotel back, my hire car, the two safaris I had booked, the five course tasting menu nearby, the three day cruise leaving the same day I arrived and the cost of my five family members booked to meet me there - unfortunately all non refundable

Fir some reason Ryanair refused.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

user1977 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

km1500 said:

the flight and hotel are completely different contracts and were booked separately and had nothing to do with each other so no you can't claim anything from Ryanair

If you are in a car accident and can't attend your holiday you can claim from the party at fault. If you can go on holiday but injuries cause you not to enjoy your holiday to the fullest you can claim loss of enjoyment from the party at fault.

There doesn't need to be a linked contract to claim damages  

No, but both of those examples are of losses following negligence, which is quite a different thing

It is a different thing but just an example of where a direct link of contracts isn’t required to seek damages.

I don’t see an airline breaching the contract being different to anything else really, unless there is specific legislation that excludes them.

eskbanker said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

It gets a bit more complicated with airlines as there is specific legislation covering things like compensation but it's not something I'm familiar with.  

There is indeed specific legislation governing financial and other implications of flight cancellations or delays for UK/EU airlines:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/contents
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/flight-cancellation-compensation/

This will oblige Ryanair to rebook OP onto another flight, and may also require compensation to be paid if there's less than two weeks' notice provided and the root cause is deemed to be within the airline's control.

Given these obligations, it's perhaps unsurprising that they're generally seen as being in full and final settlement of passenger claims, but I don't recall seeing any mention of trying the unfair terms angle(s) to justify a claim for consequential losses, so when this scenario is discussed on the relevant travel board, the prevailing wisdom is typically that separate accommodation bookings aren't reclaimable from airlines cancelling flights, and that such claims need to be made via travel insurers.

Only had a quick Google but from what I see the CRA applies to aviation (the government had a consultation and decided such sections should not be exempt) which would mean terms should be fair with the basic principle of a balanced contract being most notable.

I’m too lazy to read Ryanair’s terms (so suggested OP do so), should those terms allow both Ryanair and the passenger to effectively cancel the flight at a certain point then that is heading towards being balanced (the CMA suggests equal rights to cancel in itself may not necessarily create balance as there is often little incentive for a trader to cancel compared to the consumer but that aside) and thus there is no breach of contract  because balanced terms allow both an out.

If the terms bind the consumer but not the airline I don’t see how that can be justified under the CRA.

Usually an unfair term would be void leaving the rest of the contract to stand. 

I’m unsure whether that would mean both may freely cancel or neither may freely cancel but when you look at CMA guidance the other way around it says the ordinary position applies meaning costs or loss of profits.

With that in mind I don’t see why a consumer can’t claim losses, obviously they need to be mitigated so if another flight got you to your destination on time but cost less than missing x days holiday you should instead claim the increased cost in the different flight.

I understand some specific things are classed as being outside of the airlines control (l’m not sure if that affects anything regarding damages, if your plumber gets a cold or breaks their leg and breaches their contract that’s not within their control but they’d still be breaching the contract AFAIK) and I believe such are exempt from the legislation covering compensation but here we aren’t talking about compensation.

Instead we are talking about the standard principle of damages with someone being back in the position they would have been had the breach not occurred.

I would assume it’s foreseeable that a cancelled flight may lead to lost benefit of an alternative contract for leisure or such. 

I really don’t see why someone should have to have insurance against another party being in breach of contract. 

As I say that’s unless there is specific legislation allowing the airlines to be considered different, specifically on the point of damages, or I’m misunderstanding something along the way.

eskbanker

If a UK/EU airline cancels a flight, then there's a regulatory obligation for them to remedy this by either replacing or refunding (the choice being the customer's), and the customer also has the right to unilaterally vary the flight booking, albeit for an admin fee, so isn't there an argument that this might satisfy the criteria for equitable contractual rights?

PHK

eskbanker said:

If a UK/EU airline cancels a flight, then there's a regulatory obligation for them to remedy this by either replacing or refunding (the choice being the customer's), and the customer also has the right to unilaterally vary the flight booking, albeit for an admin fee, so isn't there an argument that this might satisfy the criteria for equitable contractual rights?

Yes, it does. You are right. 

Unfortunately in this forum people often quote things off the top of their head or on the basis of a quick Google or partial misunderstanding of laws. I think they sometimes forget that people come here for advice not for speculation. 

Grumpy_chap

This thread has asked the question whether the specific regulated remedies for flight delay / cancellation are in addition to, or replace, wider consumer rights in the context of consequential losses.

There is also a clearly defined link in travel contracts between a "package" including flight and accommodation being treated differently to independent bookings.  If the airline was liable in any case for the loss of the accommodation element then there would seem to be no need for the specific regulatory rules around package holidays.

This is obviously a more complex scenario than it first seems.  I suspect that the "consequential loss" part of a delayed / cancelled flight is not available in addition to the specific regulatory remedies / compensation. 
In part because that specific compensation is often already quite high compared to the cost of the flights.  
In part because one assumes if the consequential losses could be recovered this would have been established through the courts by the travel insurers.  This is a sufficiently frequent event that the travel insurers would see the value in bringing a test case - just because the insurer has paid out to an individual does not preclude the insurer from claiming recovery from a third party - the airline in this case.

The OP does not appear to have stated how far in advance of travel the flight has been cancelled, not any stated reason for the change.