Ryanair have Cancelled my Flight

MobileSaver

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

MobileSaver said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

RefluentBeans said:

The prevailing thought on these boards, and generally across the UK, is that consequential losses are not expected to be paid unless there is gross negligence from one party. And a flight being cancelled or delayed certainly doesn’t fall into that gross negligence, unless very last minute and very disruptive. And even then, I think you’d be lucky to get anything more than the nights you’ve been delayed by back. 

https://hallellis.co.uk/remoteness-reasonably-foreseeable-damages/

but (unless I'm missing it) a requirement for there to be gross negligence isn't mentioned?

I think you have answered your own question.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

As above all contracts for services have the implied term of due care and skill which when not carried out would lead to a breach of contract

Negligence is the opposite of using reasonable care and skill so it doesn't need to be specifically mentioned as it is simply an implied term used to describe breaching the implied due care and skill contract term...

for it to be "gross" the bar is set very high to the point of being "jawdropping" where as negligence is beyond the actions of a reasonable person (as you say care and skill similar to the CRA) so I don't see the actions have to be "gross" for direct or indirect losses to apply but again always happy to be corrected.

I agree.

To be liable in a civil case like this you simply need to be "negligent". If your actions/inactions are so bad that they are considered to be "gross negligence" then that typically (always?) elevates a civil case into a criminal case.

In regards to the OP's original question then the OP will need to prove that on the balance of probabilities Ryanair were negligent in cancelling the original flight.

eskbanker

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

eskbanker said:

If you mean the option to pay an extra £50 or so for flexibility then I don't think that means those who opt not to can't claim the contract they have is balanced, hotels do the same thing and whilst paying the extra gets you a no fuss refund, not paying the extra doesn't necessarily mean you have to pay 100%.

I don't think that's directly relevant here - the question is whether or not there's an obligation for contracts to offer exact equivalent terms on both sides in order to avoid being deemed unfair.

Sorry maybe we're getting posts crossed a little when you mentioned earlier

eskbanker said:

If a UK/EU airline cancels a flight, then there's a regulatory obligation for them to remedy this by either replacing or refunding (the choice being the customer's), and the customer also has the right to unilaterally vary the flight booking, albeit for an admin fee, so isn't there an argument that this might satisfy the criteria for equitable contractual rights?

If the that option to vary the flight only occurs after the airline announces a change then I don't think that is balanced. 

You chopped out the subsequent post clarifying that the option to vary doesn't only occur after the airline announces a change!  

eskbanker said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

eskbanker said:

No, I wasn't referring to customer's rights specifically after a delay or cancellation, but the generic flexibility offered (at a price).

If you mean the option to pay an extra £50 or so for flexibility then I don't think that means those who opt not to can't claim the contract they have is balanced, hotels do the same thing and whilst paying the extra gets you a no fuss refund, not paying the extra doesn't necessarily mean you have to pay 100%.

I don't think that's directly relevant here - the question is whether or not there's an obligation for contracts to offer exact equivalent terms on both sides in order to avoid being deemed unfair.

Grumpy_chap

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

When you Google for a bit more info on any topic it's very easy to find the law repeated on various websites but when there's a technical area with ambiguity it seems very difficult to find clarification, perhaps that's because it's down to the courts, perhaps that's because those who studied the law for years aren't giving such info away for free on the internet.  

Again I may very well be wrong, I don't think it hurts to ask why though  

Grumpy_chap said:

I ask, as I have not checked, are flight bookings with Ryan Air governed by UK law given the company is based in EIRE?  Is the contract formed under Irish law?  (Similar question could be asked for any airline not UK company.)

Yes it seems covered by the laws of Ireland, in terms of consumer rights legislation it should be the same, the guidance explaining the variable areas would probably need to come from the EU (or Ireland) rather than the CMA. 

No idea what Ireland has compared to common law and damages here. 

So, in this case, we are concerned with the law of Republic of Ireland - I suspect very similar to English law.

Then we have the conflict between consumer rights (CRA or equivalent) and the specific remedies set out via EU261 (or UK equivalent). 
It may be plausible that where CRA and EU261 may conflict there has never been a test through the courts.
It may be possible that, particularly in the case of budget airlines, the remedies under EU261 are generous and any further claim under CRA would fail because the value of remedy has been resolved in any case via EU261.
I note that the situation in the OP's case is not covered by EU261 as it is a flight cancellation notified more than 14 days in advance of travel.  That makes discussion around EU261 rather moot in this case.

The discussion of remedy via CRA or Unfair Contract Terms (or equivalent in RoI) may become pertinent.

However, my reading of the following two articles is that the OP can request Ryan Air to move the booking to an alternative flight on the original day via a different airline.  Has the OP investigated this option?
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/flight-changes/
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/flight-cancellation-compensation/#regulated

jim8888

So because Ryanair cancelled my flight on 1st May, I have rebooked on a flight on 3rd May and have lost my hotel room I'd booked to stay in on arrival on 1st May. I'm now travelling on 3rd May, back 10th May, and Ryanair have just informed me that the return flight on the 10th will no longer be an afternoon departure, but will leave at six in the morning instead! I've been waiting over an hour on the 'phone to see if I can change that flight, as you can't change it via the website or app.. I've flown with Ryanair many times and this is the first problem I've had, but I'm beginning to see where their legendary appalling customer service comes from. And I know O'Leary would tell me "What do you expect for £19.99?" .... except I paid £180 plus £80 lost on the hotel, another £80 to book another one and seemingly just have to suck up all the consequential cost and hassle. Meanwhile Ryanair profits were 2.1 billion euros for the first six months of last year......

eskbanker

jim8888 said:

So because Ryanair cancelled my flight on 1st May, I have rebooked on a flight on 3rd May...

Just to be clear, assuming you didn't just want a refund, Ryanair are obliged to rebook you onto a flight under comparable transport conditions at the earliest opportunity, even if that means using a different airline's flights.  Was the 3rd the most convenient alternative for you?

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/article/8

jim8888

Hi, I spent an hour trying to speak to a Ryanair agent last night to rearrange this flight. Eventually I spoke to one who couldn't check me into another flight as I was already "checked in on the rescheduled one" - but I hadn't checked in to this flight, I'd checked in on the original one! She said she'd have to escalate this and could I call back in an hour? - although I asked, she wasn't "allowed" to call me back. So I called back and waited from 7pm to 10pm on hold, trying to speak to an agent. The call centre closed at 10pm. Now I'll have to repeat the process this morning. 

user1977

eskbanker said:

jim8888 said:

So because Ryanair cancelled my flight on 1st May, I have rebooked on a flight on 3rd May...

Just to be clear, assuming you didn't just want a refund, Ryanair are obliged to rebook you onto a flight under comparable transport conditions at the earliest opportunity, even if that means using a different airline's flights.  Was the 3rd the most convenient alternative for you?

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/article/8

And I'd have thought it pretty trivial to find an alternative route to Malaga for the same day, it's hardly an obscure destination only served by Ryanair.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

eskbanker said:

You chopped out the subsequent post clarifying that the option to vary doesn't only occur after the airline announces a change!  

Apologies I'm probably not being clear  

If both customer and trader can't cancel that's balanced (aside from any rights the customer may have to cancel)
If both customer and airline can cancel for the same period that's balanced. 
If both customer can't cancel but airline can or the periods under which both can cancel are different I don't think that's balanced. 

That relates to cancelling, I think you was suggesting there is a fourth option (by mention of at a price) where you can:

Book a flight on the 12th of June at 3:30 for £99 with no flexibility
Book the same flight on the 12th of June at 3:30 for £149 with flexibility

Whilst that is a valid service I don't think making the flexibility a paid option creates balance with regards to the customers who pay the £99. 

Terms covering the trader's right to vary the terms can be tested for fairness, typically they should be specific, transparent, not reduce the benefit the consumer would receive under the contract or leave them facing unanticipated costs or new requirements.

Varying terms are likely to be fair if they are narrow and offer the consumer the opportunity to cancel should a variation occur.