Who has not done their job properly, my conveyancer, purchasers solicitor or the Local Authority?

lika_86

GTG said:

Tiglet2 said:

When you were selling the property, was there a charge on the registered title regarding the disabilities grant?  Some local authorities will place a charge against the property, that will have to be re-paid, if the disabled person moves out and sells the adapted property a few years after the works have been completed. 

I don't know about HMLR but obviously at the local authority land registry as the new purchaser's solicitor found it. 

It is very much buyer beware.  When a buyer and their solicitor are purchasing a property, it is their responsibility to make enquiries and do any due diligence necessary to ensure that they are buying a good and marketable title.   It would fall upon them to raise enquiries of your solicitor/you/the council in order that the charge could be removed, before the new owner could be registered.

I thought it was a bit of a joint effort between the vendor's and purchaser's conveyancers to ensure there will not be any disputed after the sale. 

As you were selling as Administrator, you wouldn't be expected to know anything much about the property.  Presumably the property was being sold with "limited title"?

That is an interesting angle on this. I do not have a copy of the contract of sale I signed (does anyone ask to look at these?) I took it in good faith that the conveyancer was acting to protect my interests so would expect that to be in the contract. Is that correct? 

First of all, I would check the paperwork when you sold to see if the charge is noted on the title.  If it is, then I would pass it back to the purchaser's solicitor via your solicitor to say that you were not aware of the charge as you were selling as Administrator with limited title guarantee and that they should have dealt with this during the purchase.

Would my conveyancer have provided me with copies of the title register during the conveyancing process? Also, I am guessing I need to ask for a copy of the contract of sale to see if the conveyancer has done the right thing for me as an Administrator and included a limited guarantee clause? Is that correct?

The monies owed to the council will need to be repaid though.

Yes, the deceased was definitely awarded the grant. Since my original post one of the beneficiaries (one of the sons of the deceased) has found some of the deceased's paperwork relating to one off works by the management company i.e. the local authority and the Notice of Approval of the Grant. They were in the back of an old photo album so not in my possession when doing the administration. 




 

Thank you very much to everyone for your help and especially to Tiglet, much appreciated! Sorry I do not have the time to reply to everyone. Tiglet I hope you can answer my new queries please see my replies in italics in the quote box above.

Have you actually spoken to the solicitor who carried out your conveyancing? You should ask the questions that were in my earlier post. You need proper advice on this.

As I understand it, the charge doesn't go on the title but are local land charges that would then be revealed by a local land charges search. These searches are normally carried out by your buyer's solicitor. Your solicitor wouldn't normally do such a search as part of the conveyancing. 

GTG

lika_86 said:

GTG said:

Tiglet2 said:

When you were selling the property, was there a charge on the registered title regarding the disabilities grant?  Some local authorities will place a charge against the property, that will have to be re-paid, if the disabled person moves out and sells the adapted property a few years after the works have been completed. 

I don't know about HMLR but obviously at the local authority land registry as the new purchaser's solicitor found it. 

It is very much buyer beware.  When a buyer and their solicitor are purchasing a property, it is their responsibility to make enquiries and do any due diligence necessary to ensure that they are buying a good and marketable title.   It would fall upon them to raise enquiries of your solicitor/you/the council in order that the charge could be removed, before the new owner could be registered.

I thought it was a bit of a joint effort between the vendor's and purchaser's conveyancers to ensure there will not be any disputed after the sale. 

As you were selling as Administrator, you wouldn't be expected to know anything much about the property.  Presumably the property was being sold with "limited title"?

That is an interesting angle on this. I do not have a copy of the contract of sale I signed (does anyone ask to look at these?) I took it in good faith that the conveyancer was acting to protect my interests so would expect that to be in the contract. Is that correct? 

First of all, I would check the paperwork when you sold to see if the charge is noted on the title.  If it is, then I would pass it back to the purchaser's solicitor via your solicitor to say that you were not aware of the charge as you were selling as Administrator with limited title guarantee and that they should have dealt with this during the purchase.

Would my conveyancer have provided me with copies of the title register during the conveyancing process? Also, I am guessing I need to ask for a copy of the contract of sale to see if the conveyancer has done the right thing for me as an Administrator and included a limited guarantee clause? Is that correct?

The monies owed to the council will need to be repaid though.

Yes, the deceased was definitely awarded the grant. Since my original post one of the beneficiaries (one of the sons of the deceased) has found some of the deceased's paperwork relating to one off works by the management company i.e. the local authority and the Notice of Approval of the Grant. They were in the back of an old photo album so not in my possession when doing the administration. 




 

Thank you very much to everyone for your help and especially to Tiglet, much appreciated! Sorry I do not have the time to reply to everyone. Tiglet I hope you can answer my new queries please see my replies in italics in the quote box above.

Have you actually spoken to the solicitor who carried out your conveyancing? You should ask the questions that were in my earlier post. You need proper advice on this.

As I understand it, the charge doesn't go on the title but are local land charges that would then be revealed by a local land charges search. These searches are normally carried out by your buyer's solicitor. Your solicitor wouldn't normally do such a search as part of the conveyancing. 

I have asked the person at the freeholders/the local authority that prepared the Leasehold Pack why they had not mentioned the outstanding grant in there. He told me that, that was the responsibility of my conveyancer to do a local land charges search and then to get in touch with the relevant department before completion.   

user1977

GTG said:

lika_86 said:

GTG said:

Tiglet2 said:

When you were selling the property, was there a charge on the registered title regarding the disabilities grant?  Some local authorities will place a charge against the property, that will have to be re-paid, if the disabled person moves out and sells the adapted property a few years after the works have been completed. 

I don't know about HMLR but obviously at the local authority land registry as the new purchaser's solicitor found it. 

It is very much buyer beware.  When a buyer and their solicitor are purchasing a property, it is their responsibility to make enquiries and do any due diligence necessary to ensure that they are buying a good and marketable title.   It would fall upon them to raise enquiries of your solicitor/you/the council in order that the charge could be removed, before the new owner could be registered.

I thought it was a bit of a joint effort between the vendor's and purchaser's conveyancers to ensure there will not be any disputed after the sale. 

As you were selling as Administrator, you wouldn't be expected to know anything much about the property.  Presumably the property was being sold with "limited title"?

That is an interesting angle on this. I do not have a copy of the contract of sale I signed (does anyone ask to look at these?) I took it in good faith that the conveyancer was acting to protect my interests so would expect that to be in the contract. Is that correct? 

First of all, I would check the paperwork when you sold to see if the charge is noted on the title.  If it is, then I would pass it back to the purchaser's solicitor via your solicitor to say that you were not aware of the charge as you were selling as Administrator with limited title guarantee and that they should have dealt with this during the purchase.

Would my conveyancer have provided me with copies of the title register during the conveyancing process? Also, I am guessing I need to ask for a copy of the contract of sale to see if the conveyancer has done the right thing for me as an Administrator and included a limited guarantee clause? Is that correct?

The monies owed to the council will need to be repaid though.

Yes, the deceased was definitely awarded the grant. Since my original post one of the beneficiaries (one of the sons of the deceased) has found some of the deceased's paperwork relating to one off works by the management company i.e. the local authority and the Notice of Approval of the Grant. They were in the back of an old photo album so not in my possession when doing the administration. 




 

Thank you very much to everyone for your help and especially to Tiglet, much appreciated! Sorry I do not have the time to reply to everyone. Tiglet I hope you can answer my new queries please see my replies in italics in the quote box above.

Have you actually spoken to the solicitor who carried out your conveyancing? You should ask the questions that were in my earlier post. You need proper advice on this.

As I understand it, the charge doesn't go on the title but are local land charges that would then be revealed by a local land charges search. These searches are normally carried out by your buyer's solicitor. Your solicitor wouldn't normally do such a search as part of the conveyancing. 

I have asked the person at the freeholders/the local authority that prepared the Leasehold Pack why they had not mentioned the outstanding grant in there. He told me that, that was the responsibility of my conveyancer to do a local land charges search and then to get in touch with the relevant department before completion.   

I can't see that it would be anything to do with the council in their capacity as freeholders, it's a completely separate matter.

GTG

user1977 said:

GTG said:

lika_86 said:

GTG said:

Tiglet2 said:

When you were selling the property, was there a charge on the registered title regarding the disabilities grant?  Some local authorities will place a charge against the property, that will have to be re-paid, if the disabled person moves out and sells the adapted property a few years after the works have been completed. 

I don't know about HMLR but obviously at the local authority land registry as the new purchaser's solicitor found it. 

It is very much buyer beware.  When a buyer and their solicitor are purchasing a property, it is their responsibility to make enquiries and do any due diligence necessary to ensure that they are buying a good and marketable title.   It would fall upon them to raise enquiries of your solicitor/you/the council in order that the charge could be removed, before the new owner could be registered.

I thought it was a bit of a joint effort between the vendor's and purchaser's conveyancers to ensure there will not be any disputed after the sale. 

As you were selling as Administrator, you wouldn't be expected to know anything much about the property.  Presumably the property was being sold with "limited title"?

That is an interesting angle on this. I do not have a copy of the contract of sale I signed (does anyone ask to look at these?) I took it in good faith that the conveyancer was acting to protect my interests so would expect that to be in the contract. Is that correct? 

First of all, I would check the paperwork when you sold to see if the charge is noted on the title.  If it is, then I would pass it back to the purchaser's solicitor via your solicitor to say that you were not aware of the charge as you were selling as Administrator with limited title guarantee and that they should have dealt with this during the purchase.

Would my conveyancer have provided me with copies of the title register during the conveyancing process? Also, I am guessing I need to ask for a copy of the contract of sale to see if the conveyancer has done the right thing for me as an Administrator and included a limited guarantee clause? Is that correct?

The monies owed to the council will need to be repaid though.

Yes, the deceased was definitely awarded the grant. Since my original post one of the beneficiaries (one of the sons of the deceased) has found some of the deceased's paperwork relating to one off works by the management company i.e. the local authority and the Notice of Approval of the Grant. They were in the back of an old photo album so not in my possession when doing the administration. 




 

Thank you very much to everyone for your help and especially to Tiglet, much appreciated! Sorry I do not have the time to reply to everyone. Tiglet I hope you can answer my new queries please see my replies in italics in the quote box above.

Have you actually spoken to the solicitor who carried out your conveyancing? You should ask the questions that were in my earlier post. You need proper advice on this.

As I understand it, the charge doesn't go on the title but are local land charges that would then be revealed by a local land charges search. These searches are normally carried out by your buyer's solicitor. Your solicitor wouldn't normally do such a search as part of the conveyancing. 

I have asked the person at the freeholders/the local authority that prepared the Leasehold Pack why they had not mentioned the outstanding grant in there. He told me that, that was the responsibility of my conveyancer to do a local land charges search and then to get in touch with the relevant department before completion.   

I can't see that it would be anything to do with the council in their capacity as freeholders, it's a completely separate matter.

The council manage the building themselves and it was the local authority that granted the money.

user1977

GTG said:

user1977 said:

GTG said:

lika_86 said:

GTG said:

Tiglet2 said:

When you were selling the property, was there a charge on the registered title regarding the disabilities grant?  Some local authorities will place a charge against the property, that will have to be re-paid, if the disabled person moves out and sells the adapted property a few years after the works have been completed. 

I don't know about HMLR but obviously at the local authority land registry as the new purchaser's solicitor found it. 

It is very much buyer beware.  When a buyer and their solicitor are purchasing a property, it is their responsibility to make enquiries and do any due diligence necessary to ensure that they are buying a good and marketable title.   It would fall upon them to raise enquiries of your solicitor/you/the council in order that the charge could be removed, before the new owner could be registered.

I thought it was a bit of a joint effort between the vendor's and purchaser's conveyancers to ensure there will not be any disputed after the sale. 

As you were selling as Administrator, you wouldn't be expected to know anything much about the property.  Presumably the property was being sold with "limited title"?

That is an interesting angle on this. I do not have a copy of the contract of sale I signed (does anyone ask to look at these?) I took it in good faith that the conveyancer was acting to protect my interests so would expect that to be in the contract. Is that correct? 

First of all, I would check the paperwork when you sold to see if the charge is noted on the title.  If it is, then I would pass it back to the purchaser's solicitor via your solicitor to say that you were not aware of the charge as you were selling as Administrator with limited title guarantee and that they should have dealt with this during the purchase.

Would my conveyancer have provided me with copies of the title register during the conveyancing process? Also, I am guessing I need to ask for a copy of the contract of sale to see if the conveyancer has done the right thing for me as an Administrator and included a limited guarantee clause? Is that correct?

The monies owed to the council will need to be repaid though.

Yes, the deceased was definitely awarded the grant. Since my original post one of the beneficiaries (one of the sons of the deceased) has found some of the deceased's paperwork relating to one off works by the management company i.e. the local authority and the Notice of Approval of the Grant. They were in the back of an old photo album so not in my possession when doing the administration. 




 

Thank you very much to everyone for your help and especially to Tiglet, much appreciated! Sorry I do not have the time to reply to everyone. Tiglet I hope you can answer my new queries please see my replies in italics in the quote box above.

Have you actually spoken to the solicitor who carried out your conveyancing? You should ask the questions that were in my earlier post. You need proper advice on this.

As I understand it, the charge doesn't go on the title but are local land charges that would then be revealed by a local land charges search. These searches are normally carried out by your buyer's solicitor. Your solicitor wouldn't normally do such a search as part of the conveyancing. 

I have asked the person at the freeholders/the local authority that prepared the Leasehold Pack why they had not mentioned the outstanding grant in there. He told me that, that was the responsibility of my conveyancer to do a local land charges search and then to get in touch with the relevant department before completion.   

I can't see that it would be anything to do with the council in their capacity as freeholders, it's a completely separate matter.

The council manage the building themselves and it was the local authority that granted the money.

Yes, I understand that, but I would expect the department which provides such grants to be completely separate from that which manages the building. It would be like expecting them to pick up on his overdue library books as well on the basis that's also the council. It doesn't change the fact that the money is owed.

GTG

user1977 said:

GTG said:

user1977 said:

GTG said:

lika_86 said:

GTG said:

Tiglet2 said:

When you were selling the property, was there a charge on the registered title regarding the disabilities grant?  Some local authorities will place a charge against the property, that will have to be re-paid, if the disabled person moves out and sells the adapted property a few years after the works have been completed. 

I don't know about HMLR but obviously at the local authority land registry as the new purchaser's solicitor found it. 

It is very much buyer beware.  When a buyer and their solicitor are purchasing a property, it is their responsibility to make enquiries and do any due diligence necessary to ensure that they are buying a good and marketable title.   It would fall upon them to raise enquiries of your solicitor/you/the council in order that the charge could be removed, before the new owner could be registered.

I thought it was a bit of a joint effort between the vendor's and purchaser's conveyancers to ensure there will not be any disputed after the sale. 

As you were selling as Administrator, you wouldn't be expected to know anything much about the property.  Presumably the property was being sold with "limited title"?

That is an interesting angle on this. I do not have a copy of the contract of sale I signed (does anyone ask to look at these?) I took it in good faith that the conveyancer was acting to protect my interests so would expect that to be in the contract. Is that correct? 

First of all, I would check the paperwork when you sold to see if the charge is noted on the title.  If it is, then I would pass it back to the purchaser's solicitor via your solicitor to say that you were not aware of the charge as you were selling as Administrator with limited title guarantee and that they should have dealt with this during the purchase.

Would my conveyancer have provided me with copies of the title register during the conveyancing process? Also, I am guessing I need to ask for a copy of the contract of sale to see if the conveyancer has done the right thing for me as an Administrator and included a limited guarantee clause? Is that correct?

The monies owed to the council will need to be repaid though.

Yes, the deceased was definitely awarded the grant. Since my original post one of the beneficiaries (one of the sons of the deceased) has found some of the deceased's paperwork relating to one off works by the management company i.e. the local authority and the Notice of Approval of the Grant. They were in the back of an old photo album so not in my possession when doing the administration. 




 

Thank you very much to everyone for your help and especially to Tiglet, much appreciated! Sorry I do not have the time to reply to everyone. Tiglet I hope you can answer my new queries please see my replies in italics in the quote box above.

Have you actually spoken to the solicitor who carried out your conveyancing? You should ask the questions that were in my earlier post. You need proper advice on this.

As I understand it, the charge doesn't go on the title but are local land charges that would then be revealed by a local land charges search. These searches are normally carried out by your buyer's solicitor. Your solicitor wouldn't normally do such a search as part of the conveyancing. 

I have asked the person at the freeholders/the local authority that prepared the Leasehold Pack why they had not mentioned the outstanding grant in there. He told me that, that was the responsibility of my conveyancer to do a local land charges search and then to get in touch with the relevant department before completion.   

I can't see that it would be anything to do with the council in their capacity as freeholders, it's a completely separate matter.

The council manage the building themselves and it was the local authority that granted the money.

Yes, I understand that, but I would expect the department which provides such grants to be completely separate from that which manages the building. It would be like expecting them to pick up on his overdue library books as well on the basis that's also the council. It doesn't change the fact that the money is owed.

Yes you're right and a good analogy thrown in too LOL!

SDLT_Geek

GTG said:

lika_86 said:

GTG said:

Tiglet2 said:

When you were selling the property, was there a charge on the registered title regarding the disabilities grant?  Some local authorities will place a charge against the property, that will have to be re-paid, if the disabled person moves out and sells the adapted property a few years after the works have been completed. 

I don't know about HMLR but obviously at the local authority land registry as the new purchaser's solicitor found it. 

It is very much buyer beware.  When a buyer and their solicitor are purchasing a property, it is their responsibility to make enquiries and do any due diligence necessary to ensure that they are buying a good and marketable title.   It would fall upon them to raise enquiries of your solicitor/you/the council in order that the charge could be removed, before the new owner could be registered.

I thought it was a bit of a joint effort between the vendor's and purchaser's conveyancers to ensure there will not be any disputed after the sale. 

As you were selling as Administrator, you wouldn't be expected to know anything much about the property.  Presumably the property was being sold with "limited title"?

That is an interesting angle on this. I do not have a copy of the contract of sale I signed (does anyone ask to look at these?) I took it in good faith that the conveyancer was acting to protect my interests so would expect that to be in the contract. Is that correct? 

First of all, I would check the paperwork when you sold to see if the charge is noted on the title.  If it is, then I would pass it back to the purchaser's solicitor via your solicitor to say that you were not aware of the charge as you were selling as Administrator with limited title guarantee and that they should have dealt with this during the purchase.

Would my conveyancer have provided me with copies of the title register during the conveyancing process? Also, I am guessing I need to ask for a copy of the contract of sale to see if the conveyancer has done the right thing for me as an Administrator and included a limited guarantee clause? Is that correct?

The monies owed to the council will need to be repaid though.

Yes, the deceased was definitely awarded the grant. Since my original post one of the beneficiaries (one of the sons of the deceased) has found some of the deceased's paperwork relating to one off works by the management company i.e. the local authority and the Notice of Approval of the Grant. They were in the back of an old photo album so not in my possession when doing the administration. 




 

Thank you very much to everyone for your help and especially to Tiglet, much appreciated! Sorry I do not have the time to reply to everyone. Tiglet I hope you can answer my new queries please see my replies in italics in the quote box above.

Have you actually spoken to the solicitor who carried out your conveyancing? You should ask the questions that were in my earlier post. You need proper advice on this.

As I understand it, the charge doesn't go on the title but are local land charges that would then be revealed by a local land charges search. These searches are normally carried out by your buyer's solicitor. Your solicitor wouldn't normally do such a search as part of the conveyancing. 

I have asked the person at the freeholders/the local authority that prepared the Leasehold Pack why they had not mentioned the outstanding grant in there. He told me that, that was the responsibility of my conveyancer to do a local land charges search and then to get in touch with the relevant department before completion.   

As others have said, your conveyancer would not usually have carried out a local search, that is for the buyer's conveyancer to do. 

As has also been said, if the estate is liable to repay the grant or part of it, then the estate remains liable even when the property has been sold.

GTG

lika_86 said:

GTG said:

I sold a flat (exchanged contracts) in March 2022 as part of the work involved in the administration of an estate. I completed the administration of the estate in September 2022. Last week I received an email from the proprietor of the conveyancing firm I used for the sale of the flat. It was to tell me that the gentleman that I sold it to was selling it on and his purchaser's solicitor had done a local land search which revealed that there is a "Notification of approval of disabled facilities grant" which was registered in November 2014 and some of the grant would be repayable if the property is sold within 10 years. The deceased's paper work keeping was not his strong point so I acquired an incomplete set of records and I was not aware of the grant when doing the administration. The current owner/seller has asked my conveyancer to get it sorted and the conveyancer has asked for my comments. I paid the local authority who are the freeholders and manage the building for a leasehold pack which was sent to the conveyancer during the conveyancing process. 

Anyone got any advice as to the best way to proceed with this please?      

Surely the best way to proceed is to ask your solicitor whether you are in fact liable to pay this. Then take their advice.

But it sounds to me like the questions you should be asking are:
1. As the executor, is the estate liable (in general terms) to pay a grant back even in circumstances where the person who received the grant died before the 10 years were up?
2. If so, does the fact that the property has been sold mean that the liability to discharge the grant has now passed to the current owner? Or does the liability remain with the estate because the disposal to the current owner happened within 10 years?
3. If there is liability for you as the executor to pay this, how would/should/could you have known about this? And what can you now do about it?

Thanks for your input lika 86. 

It was clear from the Notice of Approval of the grant that the deceased had been awarded the grant and both the beneficiaries confirmed that adaptations had been made to the property free of charge through social services. They were not aware that it was financed with a LA grant but rather through a social services scheme. As the quality of their fathers' life had greatly benefitted from the adaptions they said they thought it was unfair to burden the current owner and that they would get in touch with the LA and settle the amount owed in proportion to what they had received from the Will. I had a feeling that they would ask me to just pay it and they would refund me the monies so what they are doing is even better for me. I did ask the conveyancer to explain why the grant had been missed and he said they had nothing on file to know of its existence and he did not know why the purchaser's solicitor had not brought it up with them before exchange of contracts and completion. I have had different opinions as to whether it is solely the duty of the purchasers conveyancer to do a local land charges registry search so I do not have a definitive answer to that!

lincroft1710

As the sale of the property only happened because of the death of the owner, I wonder if it would be worth approaching the council and asking if they would waive the repayment in view of the circumstances which led to the sale

GDB2222

There's an explanatory document from Forest of Dean Council that says the council will only reclaim: 
"where the work ...  increased the habitable floor area of the property"

https://www.fdean.gov.uk/media/ltvpkqqc/disabled-facilities-grant-policy.pdf

It would be worth checking whether the same applies in this case.