Kitchen Fitter/Joiner Problem. Update!

swingaloo · 1 April 2024 at 9:56AM

Not sure if this is the correct board but not sure where else to put it.

Thank you for reading. I know its long but context needed. Can anyone advise on the best steps to take in this scenario please.

I'm asking for advice on behalf of someone I know. He is self employed as a joiner and recently took a job fitting a kitchen for a lady. From the start it was fraught with problems and the lady was not easy to work for at all.
She complained about everything, there was a tiler, electrician and plumber there as well one of whom walked out on the job as he wasn't prepared to be continually swore at and have her stood over his every move. Space was tight and she insisted on watching and overseeing every minute of the job.
She found fault with everything possible and was a nightmare to work for. At one point he arrived in the morning to find she had started to fill cupboards he had not even finished fixing and on another occasion she invited 2 friend to come and see her new kitchen which was nowhere near done, no worktops and she made them coffee and sandwiches and they all 3 brought chairs into the kitchen, moved his tools outside 'as they are in the way' and all 3 sat watching him. He asked if they could perhaps go into the other room to give him space and was met with 'My house, my rules'.

Anyway he finished the job, she was still complaining but wouldn't say what she was unhappy with. Just kept saying it was not satisfactory. Before he left he told her that if there was anything she wanted him to do he would do it as he wanted her to be happy with the kitchen but she couldn't point out what she was not happy with or anything she wanted sorting.

He called at our house on his way home and said he was so glad the job was over but that he had a bad feeling about it as she had made several references to 'I won't be paying you if I am not happy' etc. he is confident the job is a good one and that there are no snagging faults.

The following day he went round with her invoice and she refused to answer the door so he posted it through her door. He had not even got home when he got a text saying she 'Was not paying a penny as she was not happy with the kitchen'. He rang her and said he would turn round and come back to see what she was unhappy with and remedy anything she could find. She told him she did not want him in her house and hung up.

Since then she has texted again to say he is not getting a penny and has said there are several damages on the units, her fridge is scratched, hob is scratched and to top it off she has accused him of scratching her car when removing his tools. He is 100% that this did not happen.

Now I know that as a friend I am probably biased but this guy has done work for me and for people I know and he is a perfectionist. He is not a cowboy.

He is very upset, not just about the fact that he has not been paid but that she is sending texts saying she is going to sue him for damages to both the kitchen and car.

He has gone to the Citizens Advice and they have just told him to write her a letter saying he wants payment within 14 days or he will take her to court.

Thank you for reading. Grateful for any advice.

tacpot12 · 1 April 2024 at 10:16AM

If he wants to get paid, he will have to sue her in court. Does he want to do this? Does he have evidence that proves the units and fridge were not scratched? (If he is lucky, the fridge and units will appear in any photos he took of the finished job.)

Who supplied the materials? If the customer supplied them, and it is just his labour that he has lost, he is probably better just moving on. If he needs paying for the materials, then going to court is his only course of action. As a business, he needs to either pay for professional legal advice, have insurance that provides this, or learns how to run a court case himself. If he has to do it himself, he should buy a copy of this book: Flying Solo: How to Represent Yourself in England and Wales (paperback) | Court Wingman

If he is going to use a solicitor, or has insurance to cover legal expenses, he should talk to the solicitor first. If he is doing it himself, the advice from Chitizens Advice is correct - he needs to write a letter before action, offer mediation, and set a deadline for payment. I would recommned that he sets a deadline of five days to pay OR to open a proper dialogue with him. Uf he goes to the home again, he should take someone with him who has a camera who and who can start videoing if the situation turns violent. (One of the tradespeople that I follow on YouTube had to call the police to a mentally-ill customer who imprisoned them in the home where they had done some work!) Every contact with the customer needs to be recorded immediately after it occurs, and he should make full notes now of everything that has happened and when it happened.

money08 · 1 April 2024 at 10:27AM

Yeah tell him to get in there quick with a small claims action...whoever is first is usually right in the eyes of the law, sort of.....then whatever she claims after that is malicious. He needs someone to word it all properly and fully so there are no loopholes. Given the scenario he should have taken pics all along.

swingaloo · 1 April 2024 at 10:28AM

Thank you for the reply.
It is just his labour he has lost, she supplied the materials so not as bad as it could have been. He didn't take photos. I did ask him about it and he said he ahs never done that before so didn't see a reason to do so but will now always do it in future.
He did say that her appliances were in quite a bad state (they were not new) so there may be scratches but no way of proving they were existing at the start of the job. same for the car, he said he never went anywhere near the car so would have no idea if there were existing scratches or new scratches.

I dont really think he is comfortable going down the court route for payment, I think its more that she is threatening to sue for all this 'damage' which he has no way of proving does not exist or if it does, he is not responsible for.

Citizens advice are pretty useless, they have told him to write a letter but nothing about it being marked 'letter before action' or mediation.

money08 · 1 April 2024 at 10:41AM

Small claims is easy and he probably wont need to go in person. If he can visit the site now under the guise of negotiation and tak epics. She will need to prove her case and allegations. The fact he gets stuck in first will deter her from pushing it. He should claim the full amount at full cost. Citizens advice are right...get a proper letter drafted and get stuck in and make the small claims action (depends how much for but its not expensive. She will then see he means business and realise the damage she could do to herself and her property etc etc. The wording is key in the letter and the small claims action. usually this will suffice, and indeed he can pull out anytime he wants but she wont realise that.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head · 1 April 2024 at 11:04AM

Hello OP

If she wants to claim for things like damaged appliances she'd have to prove on the balance of probabilities that the fitter caused the damage, even if it was decided to be his fault then a scratch on the fridge doesn't get you a new fridge (judging by your comments the appliances weren't new?)

I think waiting until the end then claiming everything in the kitchen is scratched is not going to work in her favour.

To be frank, your friend really needs to ignore all the fluff and focus on the facts.

He performed a job for an agreed price and should be paid.

If the job wasn't carried out with due care and skill the customer is entitled to a price reduction, my understanding is for services the customer is to show such.

If a tradesperson damages something in your home this is a claim of damages and again it's for the customer to show.

If he is happy to walk away without being paid he of course can, if she does try to claim money for damages then your friend might as well counterclaim for his payment.

The only way she can claim is via small claims and she should* send a letter before and then file via small claims.

He shouldn't agree to any reduction for damages or say anything to admit to such, being nice isn't going to help anything, again it's a case of being factual, to the point and not getting involved emotionally.

*A claim can continue without a letter before action being sent but my understanding is this can affect chances of costs being awarded.

pinkshoes · 1 April 2024 at 3:04PM

He just needs to send her a letter before action giving her 14 days to pay the money owed.

"Dear <Mrs Bouquet>,

On X date I completed the fitting of your kitchen to a good standard with due diligence as per the contract. Upon completion you refused to pay me, but could not state anything wrong with it. I require payment in full within 14 days from receipt of this letter. If I have not received payment by X date, I will start court proceedings where you will then become liable for any additional costs.
Kind regards, Bob the Builder"

Send two copies (one via email, one via post with proof of postage).

swingaloo · 16 June 2024 at 4:13PM

Just an update on the thread. Wondering if it would be wise to take a solicitor to the interviews?

He sent her a LBA but then backed out of taking it any further (I know, I could throttle him).

He decided to forgo the money as he didn't want the confrontation and he seems genuinely frightened of the woman.

So fast forward a few weeks and he has now got 2 letters, one from the Police and one from the DWP.

Apparently she has reported him to the police for damaging her car and appliances. She has no proof but the Police have told him they will want him to come in for an interview.

The letter from the DWP says that he has been reported for asking for payment in cash when he did the job for the woman. I haven't seen the letter yet so don't know if it is an Interview under caution or just a general letter.

Im amazed but Im not going to get too involved as I helped with the LBA only for him to back out of taking it further. I told him that if he was sending the letter then it was important he follow it through and he said he was prepared to do so but then backed out. He said he didnt want to face her in court, he really does seem afraid of being near her.

Would the DWP write to someone simply because someone has reported them for asking for cash? I have no idea of his business accounts but if he has been doing cash in hand work then I do not condone it.

Does the fact that he has got this letter (again I dont know if it is an Under Caution' letter) mean that the DWP will have delved deeper? He has told my hubby that he is worried he will probably have to take his bank statement in. But, he has more than one account and says he will not show the others. He seems to think that they will not know he has other accounts so wont need to show them. Do the DWP have the way to find out he has other accounts?

Much as I could shoot him for getting into this mess I'm wondering if its worth telling him to take a solicitor with him to the interviews or is that me over reacting?

Since doing the work for her he has now stopped work altogether. He has moved out of his rented property and moved in with his girlfriend. Again I have no idea what benefits they claim other than I know he gets carers allowance for looking after her.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head · 16 June 2024 at 4:54PM

swingaloo said:

She has no proof but the Police have told him they will want him to come in for an interview.

He needs to be careful with the police, they are not there to get his side, they are there to see if he says anything to incriminate himself.

Don't know about the DWP @Soolin might know.