Charge For Extra Bedroom UC

peteuk

@Spoonie_Turtle - what you have quoted is what I have linked and quoted SSCS1A

OP questions the right DWP have to advise him that he doesnt have the right to appeal. At which point he should have complained and HMCTS would rule on his right to appeal and then if granted he would be able to appeal. 

The appeal has to be withint 13 months of the decision, so at which point in 2018 the right to appeal is lost somewhere in 2019, just because the OP didn’t do anything back then doesnt given him the right to appeal now. 

The second case is a CoC, which has been granted and back dated to the point of CoC, the OP then pushed this further and has been advised no.  He also states he has no right to appeal again.  I believe thats because he hasn’t got anything to appeal.  CoC occured, OP raised it as a CoC affecting the bed room tax, DWP have agreed and back dated to the CoC.  He has no right to appeal as there is nothing to appeal. 

I have constantly advised the OP to complain rather than raise an MR/Appeal, which I believe he has now done.  However suspect he wont get far because of the time lapse between the original MR and the complaint being 6 years. 

OP has constantly pushed the issue of DWP acting illegally, wrongfully, incorrect… they havent as you have noted and stated you must be advised of your right to appeal, which he has.  Just because the OP doesnt like the decision and the no appeal statement doesnt mean that DWP have done anything wrong, illegal etc etc. 

ANDY1964

peteuk said:

@Spoonie_Turtle - what you have quoted is what I have linked and quoted SSCS1A

OP questions the right DWP have to advise him that he doesnt have the right to appeal. At which point he should have complained and HMCTS would rule on his right to appeal and then if granted he would be able to appeal. 

The appeal has to be withint 13 months of the decision, so at which point in 2018 the right to appeal is lost somewhere in 2019, just because the OP didn’t do anything back then doesnt given him the right to appeal now. 

The second case is a CoC, which has been granted and back dated to the point of CoC, the OP then pushed this further and has been advised no.  He also states he has no right to appeal again.  I believe thats because he hasn’t got anything to appeal.  CoC occured, OP raised it as a CoC affecting the bed room tax, DWP have agreed and back dated to the CoC.  He has no right to appeal as there is nothing to appeal. 

I have constantly advised the OP to complain rather than raise an MR/Appeal, which I believe he has now done.  However suspect he wont get far because of the time lapse between the original MR and the complaint being 6 years. 

OP has constantly pushed the issue of DWP acting illegally, wrongfully, incorrect… they havent as you have noted and stated you must be advised of your right to appeal, which he has.  Just because the OP doesnt like the decision and the no appeal statement doesnt mean that DWP have done anything wrong, illegal etc etc. 

Rules, procedures and protocols are in place as for the DWP to duly abide with.

It is positively crystal clear and for a number of reasons that they have failed and have breached a number of them.

The most damming being telling me that I could not appeal their decision bit in no watch.showing the needed documentation ( MR Decision.Letter ) as strict proof of that,,

You appear to have an unhealthy obsession that the DWP have done absolutely nothing wrong here.

The facts and their failure to even achieve the basics of what is expected of them proves otherwise, I'm afraid.

peteuk

@ANDY1964 - rather than round and around in circles - how about we change this….

As you have an unhealthy obession with the DWP having done something wrong, give me the facts backed up by evidence that proves you right.

What in your opinion have DWP done that is wrong…

As far as I can see, you have no evidence to back you up, hence youve come to this forum.  Youve asked a question, you dont like the answer and so you ask it again.   This is a public forum and people on here help each other, if your not willing to take that help then thats your choice. But asking the same question, over and over again doesnt mean you will get a different answer.

Three people have pointed you to SSCS1A, I gave you a link for it to read for yourself.  Until you have a document that clearly states the DWP cannot advise you that you have no right to appeal (after MR) then I stand by what I say.

Timeline
2017 - Your on ESA living in a 3 bed property with wife and son (aged 18) you have no bedroom tax because you cant share the bedrooom
2017/2018 - You claim UC - they dont apply the same bedroom tax allowance and say you have a spare room.  So they deduct your housing element for one room
2018 - You raise an MR and told no it’s correct and you have no right to appeal further.
2023 - You have a CoC - you need a career - your son 24/5 non dependant is still with you. (Status yet to be confirmed) 
2024 - Your bedroom tax is removed and back dated to your CoC, you ask for it to be backdated to a given point in time and they so no, and you cant appeal further.

Have I missed something?

So when clarifying the situation please let us know the status of your son in relation to potential bedroom tax as your in a three bed property your room, carers room and your son (non dependant) so in theory there should be a potential one room deduction for your son.

Potiental wrong doing
1) DWP didn’t write you a letter to advise you of the MR in 2018.
2) DWP were wrong to tell you you cant further appeal
3) Given the above they owe you X amount of back pay having charged you bedroom tax between 2017 and 2023.
4). DWP haven’t written you a decission for your CoC 
5) DWP are wrong to tell you you cant further appeal.

Evidence….

kaMelo

Maybe it's relevant, maybe not, but where is your wife now?

Spoonie_Turtle

peteuk said:

OP questions the right DWP have to advise him that he doesnt have the right to appeal. At which point he should have complained and HMCTS would rule on his right to appeal and then if granted he would be able to appeal. 

…

OP has constantly pushed the issue of DWP acting illegally, wrongfully, incorrect… they havent as you have noted and stated you must be advised of your right to appeal, which he has.  Just because the OP doesnt like the decision and the no appeal statement doesnt mean that DWP have done anything wrong, illegal etc etc. 

They advised him there was no right of appeal which was most likely incorrect as this was after an MR already - which cannot be done on a decision without right of appeal*.  So they have done something wrong, which is the basis of the complaint, no?

And on the basis of that incorrect statement OP then - understandably - believed they couldn't appeal, which is why they didn't at the time.  Hence the complaint now they know, several years later.

*But it would help if somebody could find something to say for sure whether that decision about an extra bedroom does in fact carry the right of appeal, without having to rely on reasoning.  I don't think I'm wrong, but it would be simpler (and reassuring) to have something definitive to refer to.  And you know me, always happy to be corrected when need be!

^ However even if I am wrong, I assume the above is the OP's reasoning for the complaint.  You can't complain about something just because you don't like it, but that's not the case here.  They're complaining because they believe DWP wrongly advised them, which to me is fair grounds for complaint especially when it's potentially cost then so much money.

HillStreetBlues

Spoonie_Turtle said:

*But it would help if somebody could find something to say for sure whether that decision about an extra bedroom does in fact carry the right of appeal, without having to rely on reasoning.  I don't think I'm wrong, but it would be simpler (and reassuring) to have something definitive to refer to.  And you know me, always happy to be corrected when need be!

I have been skim reading this thread so haven't a view on the OP's case.

There is a PDF guide of bedroom tax appeals https://www.cih.org/media/cpjm11dh/practical-implications-of-bedroom-tax-appeals.pdf
Most are appealable but you can't appeal just because a person thinks it's unfair.

Jyana

Having had a look back through the thread, this is the best I can make out the timeline of events.

Pre June 2017 - on ESA, with bedroom tax support (BTS) from council. Living with son, who used second bedroom, and wife, who used third bedroom.
23rd June 2017 - moved to UC. Applied for BTS at same time
8th January or March 2018 (both dates have been given by OP) - request for BTS to be reconsidered. 
Unknown date in 2018 - was told on the phone no appeal could be made.
Unknown date (poss 2022 or 2023) - wife moved out of home, overnight carer now uses third bedroom.
Dec 2023 - unknown change in circumstances causes a new claim for UC.
March 2024 - new application for BTS, OP is informed that the claim cannot be backdated past the new claim in Dec 2023.
April 2024 - MR for backdating BTS for the previous 32 months, but is unsuccessful.

OP, can you confirm and add any missing details to the timeline? Also, can you let us know if your son and wife work/ed, and any benefits they claimed over the time period. Were either of them also your carer, and/or claim any carer benefits? Has there been any break in your PIP over the time period? 

born_again

kaMelo said:

Maybe it's relevant, maybe not, but where is your wife now?

Also was she ever listed as a carer back in 2017 or since? If the OP was receiving PIP, even if she may have been earning more than the limit to actually claim carers funds?

peteuk

Jyana said:

Having had a look back through the thread, this is the best I can make out the timeline of events.

Pre June 2017 - on ESA, with bedroom tax support (BTS) from council. Living with son, who used second bedroom, and wife, who used third bedroom.
23rd June 2017 - moved to UC. Applied for BTS at same time
8th January or March 2018 (both dates have been given by OP) - request for BTS to be reconsidered. 
Unknown date in 2018 - was told on the phone no appeal could be made.
Unknown date (poss 2022 or 2023) - wife moved out of home, overnight carer now uses third bedroom.
Dec 2023 - unknown change in circumstances causes a new claim for UC.
March 2024 - new application for BTS, OP is informed that the claim cannot be backdated past the new claim in Dec 2023.
April 2024 - MR for backdating BTS for the previous 32 months, but is unsuccessful.

OP, can you confirm and add any missing details to the timeline? Also, can you let us know if your son and wife work/ed, and any benefits they claimed over the time period. Were either of them also your carer, and/or claim any carer benefits? Has there been any break in your PIP over the time period? 

And the son, noted as 25 currently - so approx 17/18 in June 2017.
If son non dependant at the time of DWP decision then decision is correct…
three bedrooms, one for Op, One for wife and as son is Non dependant (TBC) then one room deduction stands (unless I’m am mistaken)

No right to appeal after Mr as theres nothing to appeal.

Now - three bedroom 
one for Op, one for carer and one for son - Non dependant (TBC) so in theory a one bedroom deduction should stand (gain unless I’m mistaken)

ANDY1964

Have now contacted the Tribunal services who have confirmed that no mandatory reconsideration letter was recieved from DWP.

I now have this in writing.


Again this would demonstrate an error in law as they were duty bound to send two copies of the decision letter.

One to me ( Claimant ) and the same to the Courts.

For that reason alone the appeal and the reasons for not making an exemption for bedroom tax surely must be flawed.

Yet another example of DWP making decision that are only relevant in principle to them and not those who are minded to consider legitimate appeals, the Tribunal who are in no way aware of the MR decision made in 2018.

Maybe the DWP feel they are a law within themselves and unlike everyone else, they need not follow the needed procedures as to deny someone with two disabilities any rights he or she has to be exempted by paying a tax that more likely than not would not be chargeable in any event.