Charge For Extra Bedroom UC

poppy12345

peteuk said:

ANDY1964 said:

Denying a Claimant the right to appeal via a Tribunal.

Surely that is an offence in law.

If any, what rules or laws are being broken by UC?

There is a situation in which you can appeal outside of the 13 months however this is in exceptional circumstances. 

I've never heard of those "exceptional circumstances" 13 months is the absolute deadline.

Spoonie_Turtle

peteuk said:

So you have a three bed house, for yourself your son (25) and a carer.  Does your son claim UC/IS/PIP/AA?  If not then there should be a deduction for him.  Given that in 2017 he would have been 18, then depending on his circumstances then and now, he would be counted as non dependant and so there is a deduction in housing benefit/UC housing element.  

This isn't correct if OP claims PIP.  But somewhat irrelevant on this thread that's now spinning in circles and going nowhere.

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To the OP: you've been advised to make a complaint, and if the DWP wrongly advised you about appealing a decision then that is the basis for your complaint.  You cannot appeal that decision now, you need to pursue a complaint.

You may need specialist advice from someone who can look at the decisions you received, help you formulate a clear and concise complaint, and advise what kind of outcome you should be looking for.

peteuk

Spoonie_Turtle said:

peteuk said:

So you have a three bed house, for yourself your son (25) and a carer.  Does your son claim UC/IS/PIP/AA?  If not then there should be a deduction for him.  Given that in 2017 he would have been 18, then depending on his circumstances then and now, he would be counted as non dependant and so there is a deduction in housing benefit/UC housing element.  

This isn't correct if OP claims PIP.  But somewhat irrelevant on this thread that's now spinning in circles and going nowhere.

Shelter advise that if a “non dependant” member of the household claim PIP (daily living) then there should be no deduction.

poppy12345 said:

peteuk said

There is a situation in which you can appeal outside of the 13 months however this is in exceptional circumstances. 

I've never heard of those "exceptional circumstances" 13 months is the absolute deadline.

Cant find the page, but I think it was extreme circumstances and is rarely used.  Certainly wouldn't be in this case.

OP for clarity I have linked in my previous post  SSCS1A - I have even given you directions to the section and paragraph.   However here it is word for word…

”Your letter should state clearly whether you have the right of appeal. If, however the decision letter says you do not have a right of appeal, but you think that the DWP have made a mistake and you should have the right of appeal, you can send your appeal to HMCTS and get a legal ruling as to weather there is a legal right to hear your case.”

Again by advising you, you don't have the right to appeal DWP have not broken any rules, laws etc.  It would then be up to you to follow this up.

Spoonie_Turtle

peteuk said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

peteuk said:

So you have a three bed house, for yourself your son (25) and a carer.  Does your son claim UC/IS/PIP/AA?  If not then there should be a deduction for him.  Given that in 2017 he would have been 18, then depending on his circumstances then and now, he would be counted as non dependant and so there is a deduction in housing benefit/UC housing element.  

This isn't correct if OP claims PIP.  But somewhat irrelevant on this thread that's now spinning in circles and going nowhere.

Shelter advise that if a “non dependant” member of the household claim PIP (daily living) then there should be no deduction.

While true, Shelter also say that claimants in receipt of PIP are exempt from having the deduction from their claim.  So, regardless of whether the nom-dependant claims it or not.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/benefits/universal_credit/deductions_from_universal_credit_for_non-dependants#title-2

ANDY1964

A complaint has been launched with DWP

That was done first thing this morning.

It's not a question of someone believing they have been wronged as keeps getting suggested.

It's a question of UC doing things in a correct and proper manner, clearly they have not got reasons I have giving.

Again I am not quite sure what it is about DWP having a right not to allow an.appeal.

FWIW they have never giving me a logical reason why they would oppose an appeal.

Unless you know something different I do not think it's of any relevence in this matter at all tbh.

HillStreetBlues

poppy12345 said:

peteuk said:

ANDY1964 said:

Denying a Claimant the right to appeal via a Tribunal.

Surely that is an offence in law.

If any, what rules or laws are being broken by UC?

There is a situation in which you can appeal outside of the 13 months however this is in exceptional circumstances. 

I've never heard of those "exceptional circumstances" 13 months is the absolute deadline.

There is a "exceptional circumstances" rule although the bar is set very high.
It came about about because of rulings Adesina v NMC 2013 & KK v Sheffield CC (CTB) [2015] UKUT 367 (AAC). Where a totally rigid "absolute" rule is unlawful.

This has been back up with the UT ruling (about Universal Credit) MZ v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (UC): [2022] https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/mz-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-uc-2022-ukut-292-aac

First, should the FTT have considered whether there were exceptional
circumstances such that the 13 month otherwise absolute time bar could
be relaxed? See e.g. Adesina v NMC [2013[ EWCA Civ 818 and KK v
Sheffield CC (CTB) [2015] UKUT 367 (AAC). I recognise that the bar for
exceptionality is set very high by those cases.

This is a reference to the principle set out in KK v Sheffield City
Council (CTB) [2015] UKUT 367 (AAC). That case confirmed that the tribunal has a
discretion to admit an appeal that was submitted outside the maximum time limit.
This discretion would only arise in exceptional circumstances where the appellant
can show that they have personally done all they could to bring the appeal in time.

The LT does need to see consider if the exceptional circumstance does apply, but as stated the bar is very high for this.

ANDY1964

The decision and advice of not being able to appeal in 2018 was made over the phone as I did not have internet service as to communicate at that particular time.

No mandatory decision letter was recieved. 

I am having the very same problem now because the findings and UC have been put on the journal.

I have asked for a hard copy of the mandatory reconsider letter that as I now understand is sent by a copy link.and would need to be sent to the Tribunal if a Claimant is minded to appeal an decision.

I have now requested a legitimate copy of the recent decision but to na avail ( 3 times )

ANDY1964

Can someone kindly advise on what grounds DWP have to determine whether or not a Claimant can appeal or not.

Its seems a very unjust and unequal way as to secure the ends of justice.

There is a lot of reference in respect of appealing out of time.

I would not have been in such a position but for UC telling me I could not appeal and failing to provide a legitimate hard copy of the reconsideration letter as I now understand would have been included in the initial request to appeal to the tribunal.

peteuk

ANDY1964 said:.

It's a question of UC doing things in a correct and proper manner, clearly they have not got reasons I have giving..

“Your letter should state clearly whether you have the right of appeal. If, however the decision letter says you do not have a right of appeal, but you think that the DWP have made a mistake and you should have the right of appeal, you can send your appeal to HMCTS and get a legal ruling as to weather there is a legal right to hear your case.”

UC have done things correctly - they have looked at your case, ruled against it and advised you that you do not have the right to appeal. 
They told you this by telephone, and there should be a letter (which may or may not have been sent - which you may or may not have received) but this doesn't change anything.  

Had you been sent a letter in 2018 it would say - You do not have a right to appeal - would this have changed your actions back then?  Explain the difference between being told and being sent a letter to a judge - there is no difference the outcome is the same. 

Best outcome - DWP apologies for not sending the MR result in a letter. 

Spoonie_Turtle

peteuk said:

ANDY1964 said:.

It's a question of UC doing things in a correct and proper manner, clearly they have not got reasons I have giving..

“Your letter should state clearly whether you have the right of appeal. If, however the decision letter says you do not have a right of appeal, but you think that the DWP have made a mistake and you should have the right of appeal, you can send your appeal to HMCTS and get a legal ruling as to weather there is a legal right to hear your case.”

UC have done things correctly - they have looked at your case, ruled against it and advised you that you do not have the right to appeal. 
They told you this by telephone, and there should be a letter (which may or may not have been sent - which you may or may not have received) but this doesn't change anything.  

Had you been sent a letter in 2018 it would say - You do not have a right to appeal - would this have changed your actions back then?  Explain the difference between being told and being sent a letter to a judge - there is no difference the outcome is the same. 

Best outcome - DWP apologies for not sending the MR result in a letter. 

I'm not convinced that's correct.  AIUI if there was no right of appeal then it would not be possible to challenge it via an MR either.  Decisions either carry the right of appeal or they don't, no halfway house, you can either challenge it or you can't.

I suspect that which decisions do and don't carry the right of appeal is set out in law, but I don't have the brainpower to try and find out where.

From the notes that go with the appeal form:
"You can only appeal where the law gives you a right of appeal. Not every decision made on social security benefits carries a right of appeal. When you get an official letter giving a decision, it must say whether you have a right of appeal against that decision. This is a legal requirement placed upon DWP.

As a broad guide, decisions on whether you are entitled to benefit, and if so, how much, do carry a right of appeal. Decisions about administrative matters, such as how or when you might get paid, do not carry a right of appeal.

Your letter should state clearly whether you have the right of appeal. If, however, the decision letter says you do not have a right of appeal, but you think that DWP have made a mistake and you should have the right of appeal, you can send your appeal to HMCTS and get a legal ruling as to whether there is a legal right to hear your case."
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-appeal-a-decision-by-dwp-sscs1a

If the decision not to allow an extra bedroom is indeed appealable, the basis of the complaint is that DWP advised incorrectly, OP acted on that incorrect information and thus missed out on appealing the decision and potentially a lot of money if the case for needing an extra bedroom had succeeded.